Episode 142
Remote Work, Trust, and the Real Cost of Getting It Wrong
The debate over remote work vs. in-office is heating up in 2025. Are companies making the right call, or are they driving away top talent? We’re diving into the real impact of trust, flexibility, and wages in today’s workforce.
We’ve all heard the debate—should people be in the office, or can they be just as effective working remotely? The answer isn’t that simple. Today, we’re talking about what really builds trust between employers and employees, and why setting clear expectations isn’t enough if you’re not backing it up with real leadership.
There’s a difference between knowing your job and truly understanding it. Sitting in the office can be great for learning opportunities, picking up on workplace dynamics, and catching those important offhand conversations. But if a leader doesn’t trust their employees to get the job done without being micromanaged, that’s a problem.
We’re diving into why businesses might actually benefit from offering more flexibility, how wage structures might shift in 2025, and what smart business owners can do to snag top talent while their competitors are too stubborn to change. Plus, we tackle the myth that showing up equals productivity and why real trust is built through actions, not policies.
Highlights
- The truth about remote work: is it really a trust issue?
- How to create clarity without micromanaging
- The hidden costs of forcing employees back into the office
- Why some businesses could actually save money by being more flexible
- How leaders screw up trust—and how to fix it
- The talent shift coming in 2025 that no one is talking about
Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast. And if this episode made you rethink your stance on remote work, share it with a friend!
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Transcript
Hey everyone, welcome back to this episode of the Blue Collar BS podcast. I am your co-host Brad along with perfect Mr. Doyle. So, full disclosure, Mr. Doyle, the millennial guy is feeling a little under the weather, but he did show up. He did show up today, which does has, which has some Gen X characteristics. So thank you for doing that, Mr. Doyle.
Steve Doyle (:Steve.
Steve Doyle (:I did. I didn't pull the millennial move and not show up.
Steve Doyle (:Whatever.
Brad Herda (:I appreciate you showing up and...
Steve Doyle (:Yeah, I'll take my lumps today.
Brad Herda (:Well, but so, so I think that's an important topic, right? Cause there are those perceptions, there are those things. And, you know, for today, you know, this episode's probably airing sometime in March. We're here at the end of January recording. lots of things are going on with the new administration, businesses coming back to. It's not, but there's a of things going on there. re-officing of, of businesses coming back in play. We've got major corporations here in Wisconsin that are trying to re-office.
Steve Doyle (:Yep.
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Steve Doyle (:Wait, I thought this wasn't a political show.
.
Brad Herda (:You know, so I guess what I want to kind of banter around today is the fact that if you can build flexibility in your workforce and have that remote opportunity, you may be able to come up with some amazing talent and replace some of your, maybe it'll level up your talent pool and still potentially reduce your wages because I think there's going to be some trade-off for that freedom of working from home versus what
Steve Doyle (:Yep.
Steve Doyle (:Yes.
Steve Doyle (:Yep.
Brad Herda (:I thought was gonna happen when COVID kind of ended was I thought we weren't gonna see the high wages go through the roof. I was wrong. I'll probably wrong about this too. But I think you may be able to get some folks now that are used to flexibility trade time for dollars or flexibility for dollars. What do you think about that Mr. Doyle? Besides just shaking your head nodding your nod.
Steve Doyle (:right.
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah, I mean. Let's face it if. To be in the office or not be in the office, I'm just going to say it right now. If you don't trust your employees, why in the hell did you hire him in the first place? Let's just we'll just get that out right now and we can talk on that. Do I think everybody needs to be in the office? No. But there are times when yeah, there's you can have a lot more teamwork and a lot more camaraderie by being in the office.
Brad Herda (:a more learning too, opportunities and sharing, just listening to the phone calls, hearing the bitching and complaining after the manager meeting and everybody walking off all angry or celebrating something or just the things that you are able to pick up in an office environment or a facility environment. So many more learning opportunities to create wisdom, right?
Steve Doyle (:But I think.
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Steve Doyle (:Yep. Yeah, there are.
Yep.
Brad Herda (:And we've talked about this on the show before about knowledge versus wisdom and knowledge is great because I can acquire it and I can use this little device here, our hands to acquire knowledge. But the application of that knowledge and knowing it and recalling it is where the wisdom comes in.
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Steve Doyle (:You didn't need to stop talking. I was going through my coughing fit.
Brad Herda (:I noticed that. I'm like, okay, great. But that's okay. Our producer, Kerry, will take care of that.
Steve Doyle (:she does, she's good at that. But yeah, I don't disagree with all the camaraderie, the teamwork and all the learning that goes on. And there's just you actually feel more connected the more you actually interact face to face, toe to toe with someone, then you do if you're doing zoom, doing things online, doing things remotely, you know, and there's there's ways that we've
had to figure out how do we feel like we're part of the team when we're thousands of miles away. It's nice, but there's nothing like being face to face with somebody.
Brad Herda (:So what would you suggest for our manufacturing construction trade businesses to think about some of those positions that could go remote that we're gonna have some folks maybe aging out or maybe some folks that want, have wanted to work remote but they put up with it and come to the office. What are some of the things that they can do as leaders and organizations to ensure that they're
They have the flexibility to pick and choose to find the right person versus just being hardline, hell fucking no, you're coming into the office and we're gonna watch your car, pull in and out of the parking lot every time and make sure you put all those damn hours in.
Steve Doyle (:You're right.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah, I mean, honestly, that's transparency. It's transparency both ways and trust. Again, going back to my comment earlier, if you don't trust your employees, why are you hiring them?
Brad Herda (:So, all right.
You're a trust guy, of, you know, trust training guy, different things, et cetera. So what are those key things that you need to have in order to create that trust from your view?
Steve Doyle (:Yeah, I'm certified. Yep. Yep.
Steve Doyle (:Clarity, clarity is number one. And oftentimes we don't, we is, Clarity in the terms that we're talking here is being crystal clear about what's at stake or what is expected. So when we talk clarity, it's.
Brad Herda (:define clarity for our audience.
Brad Herda (:So let's go through this. I expect you to come on the show and talk for 20 to 25 minutes. Is that clarity?
Steve Doyle (:It's there's ambiguity in it. What are we going to talk about? How are we going to talk about it? Am I going to show up or not show up? Am I going to be a dick or not be a dick? All of those things come into play. So you know the one thing that we that we both have is from a clarity standpoint is we both expect each other to be authentic, be who we really are. I don't need to say I don't need to say all those other fucking things, cause you know it.
Brad Herda (:That's who you are.
Steve Doyle (:falls into that umbrella.
So, but for some people, need that level. They need to dig down and layer down and really understand what are those expectations? Are we really crystal clear on what those expectations are? Because we all have a quote unquote assumptions and we know what happens when we start assuming stuff, right? We make an ass out of each other. that's not how the saying goes, but I don't really care right now. So the...
The point is, how we show up for each other is what really matters. And the words that we say, what we mean behind it, there's no underhandedness or things like that. It's truly just being genuine with this is what our expectations are. And we really need to have that open transparency, not just with other people, but also ourselves as well.
and really ask that question, why are we forcing people to come back to the office? And are we being truly honest with ourselves like, yeah, they're going to build all these other things, or is it truly the fact of, I think somebody's stealing from me, and I want to be able to watch them leave every single day. I want to watch them when they come in. I want to watch them when they leave. And I want to be able to walk by them and know that they are actually working because I don't trust them when they're at home. They're out screwing around.
Brad Herda (:I went off the beaten path there a little bit, but that's okay. We started out with clarity and went down the, okay, I got an asshole for a boss who doesn't trust anybody through those things. guess I want to circle back to that trust piece too, right? So, so clarity, great. Set expectations, show up for the show, record. Great. Fantastic. I can have all these results based expectations and it'd be very clear on what those expectations are.
Steve Doyle (:I did. Yes, I did.
Steve Doyle (:Well, but that goes back to the transplant. Yes, exactly. Yep. Yep.
Brad Herda (:that still doesn't create trust between me and you.
Steve Doyle (:Correct, it does not, but it starts.
Brad Herda (:So how do we create that trust though from that perspective? Where does trust build from? Because I know many leaders who go out and clients, right? I've set the expectations. Okay, cool, but how did you set the expectations? And what did you do with those expectations when they were met or weren't met? How did you go about communicating those expectations?
Steve Doyle (:Correct.
Brad Herda (:lots of different things there. So I don't know that, yes, clarity is part of it, but how do we get to that level of vulnerability trust that is what we're ultimately looking for that as one of my former colleagues, a guy that worked for me for a bunch of years, Pete Ziering would always say, their job is to make sure the quarterback doesn't get dirty, right? My staff members.
Steve Doyle (:true.
Brad Herda (:took that approach of, we're not gonna let you get dirty as long as you're there to help us and keep us from getting run over. We're gonna make sure we're gonna do everything we can for you to put you in the best spot. Because if you're leading us, you're gonna take us to a better spot than not.
Steve Doyle (:Yep. Right.
Brad Herda (:It's some of that ambiguity of creating that trust that is hard to define, but it is vitally important. You know, when you have that landscaper that might have five crews out there right now going through or snowplows or whatever that is, how do you create that level of trust to know that they're doing the right thing and they're
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Brad Herda (:you know, wet means wet, not what means I didn't go home two hours ago to go put down more salt.
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Right. But you said something very key right there. You said something to the fact that, you know, I did, you know, doing what I said or, you know, something along those lines. And that's where trust really starts to happen is when you are you or anyone else, the words that are coming out of your mouth, you're actually living by them.
You're not saying them and speaking out your ass on the other side and doing something different than what you've said. But that, again, that comes back to that level of clarity. How do we start to inspire that trust? We do what we say we're gonna do day in, day out.
We start to carry ourselves with that. We start to be that person that provides that level of detail with others. Some people might not like that. They might feel like they lose that upper hand. But damn it, at the end of the day, if you're not holding yourself to those higher standards, why do you think employees should follow you?
Brad Herda (:Okay, so let's follow that along for a minute. So I got a leader, we'll go back to the landscaping company, maybe that's five crews, bunch of guys out at Snowplow and whatever it might be. So maybe he's got 10 employees, five crews, two man crews going out there. He is holding that owner, that business owner, he or she is holding themselves to the standard. I said I was gonna do this, I said I was gonna do this, I said I was gonna do this.
What about from the employee side or the individual trader side to be able to say, great
to get that reciprocated, right?
Steve Doyle (:Yeah. Yeah, that's the that's the side of compassion because we actually have to think beyond ourselves. The leaders actually have to think beyond themselves and put other people before them. So as a leader, we can we can expect and demand those things. But if we're not walking in the shoes of those other people that that work for us or not, we don't care about them. We don't we don't genuinely show true compassion for them.
Why? Why should they care? They're just going to show up for a paycheck.
Brad Herda (:So what are some examples of showing that compassion? We create the clarity, how do we go about showing the compassion when things are jacked up?
from the owner's viewpoint, right? Because they'll never do it as well as I can. So therefore, I just take care of it. How come they just can't do the extra thing that might not be clearly defined in the expectations, but we're just going to do that extra thing?
Steve Doyle (:You mean that you want them to read your mind and guess what you want them to do?
Brad Herda (:Well, isn't that what most of life is about from a leadership perspective in many organizations?
Steve Doyle (:Categorically, probably.
Brad Herda (:Right? mean, so let's just, just trying to keep that real there, right?
Steve Doyle (:Yep. Yep. I mean, things that you can do from truly showing compassion, it starts with just having a frickin discussion with people before we make mandates of you need to return to the office. Let's just sit down and have a conversation. Does it truly make sense? Before we make wide sweeping gestures and yeah, this is what needs to happen.
Why can't we just have a sit down conversation with people, face to face?
Brad Herda (:Cause we're not in the fucking office, you idiot.
Steve Doyle (:Invite him to coffee. Nobody said you can't go fucking meet him.
Brad Herda (:No, no, that's not how that works. I gotta pay for mileage. I gotta pay for mileage. What the hell you talking about? Now I got mileage reimbursement to deal with and vacation issues and whose time is this really on and yada yada yada.
Steve Doyle (:Yes it is how it fucking works. I don't give a shit. Before-
Steve Doyle (:I mean, when it makes sense, you sit down and have a conversation. you're thousands of miles away, okay, you can pick up the phone and ring someone. Or sometimes it's honestly better to jump on like a Zoom call, a Teams call, Skype them, whatever you want to do, FaceTime them. I don't care. But look the person in the face, look them right in the eye and have a genuine conversation with them. Yeah, I see you. I see you. But when we can do that.
We can actually sit down, we can listen to them. We can start to appreciate the conversation that we're having, the connection that we're having. We're gonna be present for them because we're having that conversation.
Brad Herda (:I just had a client who had an employee give him his notice, lives out of state. I had the question of what to do next, what's going on, can we keep him, not keep him, different things. And I'm like, I don't know, it's about you keeping him. I think it's more about you understanding why he's departing.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:And I would urge you to make the drive down to his place versus telling him to come to you. Cause it's going to show a different level of, of opportunity and a bit different level of things. he goes, well, we've never done that before. I I understand you've never done it before, but I'm, I'm going to guarantee you, will get far more information out of that meeting or day and a half that you're with them there than having him come into the office. Feel like he's being judged and.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Exactly.
Brad Herda (:doesn't want to be there. So go take the trip. If you can to go have that meaningful conversation. He got back and he found he was he's like, yeah, I got far more information than I ever would have had he come back and come into the office.
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Steve Doyle (:Yep.
Steve Doyle (:Exactly. So I mean, when we when we take that time to actually sit down and frickin listen to people where they are, where they're at, a of stuff can change. And it can actually make your business thrive in ways you've not thought of before. But you got to pull your head out of your ass and suck it up cupcake and actually do what needs to be done. It's not easy.
Brad Herda (:You're taking drugs when you're right? And that's legal in Michigan, so it's okay.
Steve Doyle (:See what happens when I'm not feeling well? I know, right?
Not those kind. Not taking those kind. That's that seed of phetamine kind. Yep. man.
Brad Herda (:Okay, perfect. Still have to show your driver's license though.
So do you think that there is an opportunity for wage pressures to decline with the people leaving and
maybe trading time for money or flexibility for money or freedom for money? Do you think that's a possibility here in 25, 26 or not? Or do think?
Steve Doyle (:I think it's all a negotiation, honestly, with. Depending on the speed at which you want to hire someone, you're going to pay for it. Right, if you're saying I want this now now now and not willing to have the conversation, you're going to pay for it in one way or another, whether it's going to be through making a rash decision and hiring somebody you shouldn't or overpaying for someone.
I mean, seen that for years where people are being consistently overpaid for underperformance. Why? Because we got to hire somebody now, now, now, and we're not actually spending the time to actually figure out, what do I really need in this role? Right? So do I see as people, you know, mandates coming that you need to return to the office? I think people are going to take advantage of that to say, okay.
You want me to come to the office, it's gonna cost you extra now.
Steve Doyle (:That's where I see it going.
Brad Herda (:You think it's going to go up for those that are going in? Do you think it may go down for those that are going to have the flexibility? Do you think we have a trade-off for having the flexibility and freedom versus not?
Steve Doyle (:I think it'll be put more on as a quote unquote bonus for people to come into the office rather than a wage increase. It'll be a one time hit on payroll or on the books versus an annual increase over time. if companies, I mean, this is the capitalist society, right? Versus individual capitalism, business capitalism, you're gonna always look for, hey, what are the ways that we can minimize this impact?
And if I don't have to pay somebody extra in their wages and I can take a one-time hit, that's better for me in the long run as a business. Now, as an individual, six to one, half a dozen to the other. If you're positioning yourself where I need the money now, you're going to take it and you're going to try to figure out how I can create that one-time bonus structure, if you will, but then you may settle for a less of a salary.
And that salary, if it's lower, it benefits the business. There's ways to figure out how to compromise that. Don't take as much bonus. Get more in your paycheck. Because over time, your annual increases, that's what your annual increases are based on. They're not based on your one-time bonus. That's what people don't think about.
Brad Herda (:Correct.
Brad Herda (:Okay, well, we'll see what happens. My last prediction was wrong. My guess is this one's probably wrong too, but I can easily see it happening where some folks will put a value on that half hour drive every day, that 45 minute drive every day, whatever it might be, or the fact that they might have to, maybe they left their home state where they used to work, knowing that they could work from anywhere.
Steve Doyle (:Yep.
Steve Doyle (:yeah.
Brad Herda (:went someplace else to be closer to family or something else or better weather conditions and now they're going to be saying, our policy is now back in the office. You're gonna have to move back or not.
Steve Doyle (:No.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah, and you're going to have to move back on your own because we're not paying for that.
Brad Herda (:or correct, or I don't. And now they gotta go find something else. I think there's gonna be a lot of turmoil here in 2025, but I also think that there's for the blue collar guy and girl that might think that they can't afford premium talent. If you have the flexibility, I believe you're gonna have some great opportunity here in 25 to either find that employee that you've been reluctant to hire.
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah
Brad Herda (:or be able to upscale positions that you have been frustrated with for the last two or three years. That's my take.
Steve Doyle (:Right. Hmm. I see. Not a bad take.
Brad Herda (:So Mr. Doyle, until our next episode of the Blue Collar BS, you have a wonderful day. Get better with that cough. And thanks for showing up, Mr. GenX. I appreciate you.
Steve Doyle (:Yep.
finally, we acknowledge. Yes. Thank you, Brad. Yeah, it was. I don't know how heartfelt it was, but I felt it. Yeah.
Brad Herda (:That was the compassion part. I didn't mean shit like that.
no, it was heartfelt.
See you later, sir.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah.
