Episode 198
Stop Setting Dumb Goals
What happens when the push for more revenue becomes the primary goal but there's no plan behind it and quality takes a backseat?
We walk through scenarios that play out in businesses all the time. Sales brings in volume without considering fit or profitability. Operations tries to ship more while maintaining standards without addressing what's breaking down. Owners point to culture problems when the real issue is conflicting priorities from the start.
We explore how chasing revenue numbers that look impressive can hide profitability problems.
What changes when the actual cost gets connected to the owner's bottom line, and why goals created collaboratively get better results than directives from the top. The conversation includes manufacturing realities like tolerance issues that don't stack up and why checking more always uncovers more problems than you wanted to find.
Highlights:
- What happens when goals compete against each other and teams focus on documenting failure instead of pursuing success.
- How revenue targets without profitability guardrails create situations where hitting the number means losing money.
- Why showing the real dollar impact on an owner's take-home changes the conversation about competing priorities.
- What shifts when teams across departments build goals together versus receiving mandates from ownership.
- How high-volume customers can drain resources when you factor in the full cost of serving them.
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Every episode tackles the gap between what you're told should work and what actually works when you're running a business in the real world.
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Transcript
Welcome to back to the Blue Coward BS podcast. I am your co-host Brad along with my short bus driver.
Doyle (:Steve.
Brad Herda (:There you go. You were pre-show right before I came in on intro talking about the short bus on fire. So you're driving this bus and it's on fire. So you make it rain brother.
Doyle (:all right. You know, it's got me wound up lately.
Doyle (:I mean, there's there's,
Brad Herda (:We just got done talking about not wearing pants shoveling snow. So I can't, I have no idea.
Doyle (:Laughter
Well, mean, client after client, when we're talking goal setting, it just drives me nuts. Yeah, drives me nuts. Goal setting doesn't drive me nuts.
Brad Herda (:Goal setting. Goal setting.
Can we? Goal setting just be better. I don't know what the problem is.
Doyle (:just be just it just be better. I mean, it really what's really got me going lately is.
Brad Herda (:And I know that, so just so you know, the show is going to air end of Q1. So let's keep that framework in mind as well. So most goals haven't even been set yet, so it's okay.
Doyle (:Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, we're. What do you mean goals haven't been set yet?
Brad Herda (:because we had to wait and see what's going to happen in the first quarter.
Doyle (:I mean, oh, gosh, again, another issue. Keep me wound up. Keep the little monkey with the symbols going like this. Like, yay, every everything's not awesome. Yeah. I mean, it's like insanity out here. So riddle me this Batman.
Brad Herda (:Do
Doyle (:Let's just hypothetically say we want to have a goal to increase sales just generically. I need to I need to I need more sales.
Brad Herda (:Weird. Okay.
Doyle (:Weird. All right. So let's say you're working with a client and you're like, I need more sales. Great. That's our number one goal. All right. Fantastic. And your sales team runs off and goes and doing their thing. Well, then you've got to let's say you've got your let's just say we're a manufacturing company. Great. We've got to make more sales. Okay. I get that.
Then you turn around to your team that's inside making the parts and the goal that you set.
is great. We've got all these clients. We just have to ship parts nonstop now. I just want you to make them and ship them.
Doyle (:Okay, nothing wrong with that, right? So number one thing is let's...
Brad Herda (:Well, that'll create invoicing.
Doyle (:Yep, it creates invoicing and on time delivery. Perfect.
Brad Herda (:Well, maybe.
Doyle (:Perfect. No, no, no stipulations yet. No stipulations. These are just the goals. These are our goals. Okay.
Brad Herda (:Okay. Okay. So I'm to go, I want to increase top line revenue, which means I'm going to ship more parts all the time. Okay.
Doyle (:Yep, I'm shipping more parts all the time. But then you put a caveat on them. I want you to ship only the good parts, but you have to still increase what you've shipped out. And I don't really want to hear...
Brad Herda (:So are we making bad parts on a regular basis?
Doyle (:I mean, bad parts are a given, but I don't care. You need to ship the parts.
Doyle (:I don't care. I don't care. I don't want to hear about it. I want you to ship to parts. This has got me so freaking wound up. It's like, why are we setting conflicting goals?
Brad Herda (:Hold on. So I can only ship good parts, but we're not going to address how many good parts we make in a day?
Doyle (:No, no, because I have to ship out so many parts a day. got just total volume of parts shipped.
Brad Herda (:But who's saying the parts are good or not? So why do you think you're only going to ship good parts?
Doyle (:I... Doesn't matter. Just ship them. Doesn't matter, ship them. Just ship them.
Doyle (:it doesn't matter. I gotta ship the parts. You're...
Brad Herda (:That's what I'm saying. So if you put the you put the caveat on it, we can only ship good parts. Why do you think only good parts are going to go out the door?
Doyle (:they're not. They're not. And then you're going to sit there and wonder why no parts are going out the door because all you're doing is shipping bad parts because you didn't do the things you need to do. And really where it comes down to is you just took that at end of the day, what I'm seeing is in this scenario, this hypothetical scenario is
Brad Herda (:I will call it, I will call it dumb fuckery. You can call it what you'd like.
Doyle (:Yeah, but essentially you your number one goal. I need to increase sales. I didn't need to increase the right sales. I just need to increase sales. So your sales team went out and brought you in more sales doesn't mean it's a right fit for you doesn't mean it's a that you know all the.
Brad Herda (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:So there were no gross margin targets. There were no product mix targets. as you are well aware, we could increase revenue for almost anybody instantaneously by charging pennies for what is really worth dollars. And we can increase and go broke. We could do, you know.
Doyle (:Nope. Nope.
Doyle (:Correct.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Brad Herda (:4x what we did last year, but be bankrupt by the time we're done.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Absolutely. But yet...
Brad Herda (:So, so, so how have you not been able to get them to see the light? Did you not? Did you not like, take a big hammer out? Or what did you do?
Doyle (:I mean, the elephants only right twice a day. So.
the it's it's honestly this is a mindset shift for people because people have set a specific in their head. They got it stuck. I need to hit a number. I need to hit this number. This number looks big. It looks sexy. It's like this is this is where I want to track. Okay.
Brad Herda (:Does this owner have any?
Doyle (:hypothetical owner.
Brad Herda (:do they have any, you know? Like car fetishes or or ego fetishes with cars or clothes or watches or in the marketplace?
Doyle (:nothing comes to mind.
Brad Herda (:Okay, just curious.
Doyle (:Yeah, necessarily comes to mind.
Brad Herda (:Because that would be that the vanity metric of top line revenue would fit with the vanity of the other things that go along with quote unquote success. Got a client right now that says, want to go from 2.2 to 2.5, 2.6 this year, modest increase. What if we change the mix and you do the same volume and you
Doyle (:I think.
Correct. Yes.
Brad Herda (:make more money. What about if we think about that?
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:He's like, what do mean? said, well, you had a bunch of stuff that was losers. They were dogs. They don't fit your core. They don't fit your core values. How about you go get more from the folks that you like doing work with and they like you versus trying to. Yes, you can bring on a couple of new customers here and there throughout the year. That will help. How about we just get rid of the shit that you don't need and.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:Right.
Brad Herda (:Right. And that was like having that conversation with other manufacturers, machine shop fabrication houses that have the large yellow company in their facility all the time. It's like, it's like, but they got so much volume. But you're not making any money on it. we're making okay money. But you're not because you got four fucking people sitting there managing the account all the time, doing all the overhead, all labor that those four people are dedicated. And you're not including that 200 grand into your
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:Yep.
Doyle (:Right?
Doyle (:Yeah.
Brad Herda (:into your equation. And it's like, you could do so much better.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brad Herda (:because the yellow company doesn't want to move those parts any more than you want to lose them. So charge appropriately.
Doyle (:Absolutely. Absolutely. I just, it just blows my mind that when business owners get so stuck in a method.
that it's hurting them and whether they want to realize it or not, right? It's almost their own ego getting in the way to say, no, this is the direction I set and that's the way I'm gonna go. It's like, there are so many ways to pull this lever to make it easier to do what you wanna achieve.
Brad Herda (:So, so did you go, did you wait a wealth at forum or not?
Hypothetically, hypothetically, hypothetically, hypothetically speaking, did you wait a wealth and form?
Doyle (:Well, you're assuming this is a very, I was going to say you're assuming this is something. Hypothetically, absolutely. But it comes down to, well, that's great. But then what is the other metric for this team then? Because I set this metric for this other team as this line item. What are they responsible for now?
Brad Herda (:How about keeping what you already have?
Doyle (:Mmm.
So here's the caveat, keeping what you already have. But what you're saying is you keep what you have, are you unwilling to let go of the losers?
Brad Herda (:No, I'm just saying keep what you have that that makes sense, right? Which comes down to customer service, comes down to communication, comes down to, you know, making sure your open order reports are done correctly, making sure you're communicating all those things along the way that keep your customers happy versus because if you have a customer that cares about
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:I'm going to...
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:Right?
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:about communication is far more valuable than not, and making sure the data shows up on time, etc. And somebody else comes knocking on the door. This is all we can do that we do everything electronically EDI, we don't have to have a fact. Okay, great. Maybe you need to, you got to, you got to fight to keep your existing clients because there's somebody else on the other side looking for it. And if you have a leadership change at that customer,
Doyle (:Mm hmm.
Brad Herda (:or your buyer moves on or your owner leaves or whatever, you've not put yourself in a reasonable position to keep the work potentially. Cause you're moo mooing that, that client, that customer for milking it for all it's worth, because you haven't done your job on the sales side, typically for most manufacturers to develop relationships throughout the organization where it's, it's not a relationship between Bob and Jim. It's a relationship between your company and our company.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:All right.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:That should be his goal, her goal, their goal. How do we make sure that we, hypothetically, it's not Bob, Jim, and Jan's customers, it's the widget company customers. The goal this year is to ensure that we have widget customers, not those are Jim's customers, Bob's customers, and Jan's customers.
Doyle (:hypothetically.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Great.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah.
Brad Herda (:That would be a huge opportunity because at the end of the day, that will make your company far more effective, far more valuable, and far more sticky to your customers.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:Okay.
Alright.
Brad Herda (:And when you, and when they stick, they're willing to give you more. Cause you're in there. Cause maybe you're talking to this manufacturer. Maybe they're talking to the design engineer and they're buying them lunch and getting them lappers or whatever, and getting the orders. But maybe there's the other design engineer, project engineer, it's over that you haven't even started a relationship with.
Doyle (:And this.
Brad Herda (:So maybe you go to develop more relationships with people that are making decisions to provide you quote opportunities that you're not even seeing because you're so narrowly focused.
Brad Herda (:So I would suggest, you know, get rid of the customers that aren't making you money. Understand why you're not making money on them first, right? If it's a them problem or a you problem. And then try to get one to 2 % more out of each customer without it being, with it being a combination of volume and increase, maybe.
Doyle (:Correct.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:What?
Doyle (:Correct. Correct.
Brad Herda (:Not just not just a hey, we're going to raise our prices because we can know it needs to be a combination of like volume and More volume than anything else right new new projects new things
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:Right. And the other and really the other thing that needs to happen is kind of a re-level set of criteria for bringing in anybody new. Any new clients, right? We're not taking anybody.
Brad Herda (:You mean have a policy on what we should be doing? Just because the laser's empty, should I go get all the burn to shape work I can try to find?
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:yeah, I mean, it's empty. Why not?
Brad Herda (:You
Doyle (:you
Brad Herda (:And just watch it fail miserably because because you're not a burn the shape organization. You're just not a fill a laser kind of guy. You're you're a whole
Doyle (:Right?
But I got it. got this young kid that's eager to learn and you know what? I don't care what he does. Just get him get get him or her over there. I don't care what they do. Just get him out of my face. You know they're always on their phone. Let him go over there and play with it.
Brad Herda (:Oh, they don't use any of the materials that nobody wants any of the materials we burn every day?
Doyle (:Right. Yeah. I mean, make that scrap how big like like they're learning. that mindset drives me nuts.
Brad Herda (:Really? I couldn't tell.
Doyle (:I just need to have somebody on hand to do my whim, to do my whim projects. Yeah, whatever I want on a whim.
Brad Herda (:whim.
Brad Herda (:We're gonna.
Doyle (:It's all another show, but. But. Mm hmm. Yeah, government jobs. But yeah, so that is just. Blows my mind right now, just the. When when I'm doing these strategic workshops, just. How much current mindset is still stuck around?
Brad Herda (:No, that's a hit that yes, that's a whole show. Government work a whole nother show.
Doyle (:creating quote unquote, these are words that I hypothetically heard from leaders. You know, well, I got to create some competition on the team. So you're going to create goals that compete with each other so that if one gets a really high mark, it actually hurts the other group. Like, that's OK. Well, I got to challenge them to think out of the box.
Right? To think differently. Yeah. Right. In a bingo card. Yeah. From our previous show. Yeah, I'm just. You know, and it's the first time I've heard like when I first heard that my jaw hit the ground like, are you effing kidding me right now? Like, did you really just say that? And then they reiterated it. And then the rest of their team started echoing in that. And I'm like.
Brad Herda (:bingo, bingo, bingo, out of the box, bingo.
Doyle (:And we're here talking about why nobody's meeting their goals and we have a culture problem?
Brad Herda (:No, it's a goal problem. It's not a culture problem.
Doyle (:Well, all of like, but when you're. Yeah, they're just, you know, I need a new team. They're just not meeting their goals.
Brad Herda (:They're just not meeting their goals. It's not a culture. It's not the culture is not hitting your goals.
It's an excuse culture. It's a victim culture.
Doyle (:Right. You're setting your, you're personally setting your company up to fail when you're setting up competing goals with internally within each other.
Doyle (:and that's what frustrates me.
Brad Herda (:Correct. And there are ways to have competition among departments, but without it being a detriment to the organization.
Doyle (:Right. I mean, I know we've talked about this so many times, whether on the show or off the show, right? But just examples of, I have to ship parts in inner department, right? And I don't care where the fallout is, but I just got to ship parts. I got to hit my time. And if they're out of spec, they're out of spec. I don't care.
Well, at the end of the day, you've got to ship compliant parts. Which of your departments? Exactly. Yeah. especially when tolerance stackups don't match. Anyways, we can go down the.
Brad Herda (:Hot potato, not my problem. You got the potato, you get to fix it. Nope, that's not how it works.
Brad Herda (:I was at a client this week. I was at a client this week and they've got a, it's not a good customer for them.
talking about some tolerance issues and part rejects and different things. they have, so I said, let's just pull the drawings. Let's just walk through the drawing. Let me just understand the drawing, how they have this thing drawn. Let's look at this drawing to understand what they're talking about. And so they've got a burn the shape plate that gets machined to weld on a shaft.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:Help me understand. Help me understand.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:a round shaft that yeah, is a round shaft. Yes, fuck you.
Doyle (:Really? Round, not square?
No triangle.
Brad Herda (:However, however, it is called out to be machined after it's been attached to this weldment.
Doyle (:Okay. All right.
Brad Herda (:So it's an awkward shape, right? So, so what they want is they want to put it on a, you're to take this, this part that fits hand and they want to machine the, this whole tube, this whole tube has a diameter to it that they want. The shaft has a diameter on it and then two stepped areas, but they want to machine the whole thing after it's welded across 60 % of the part is welded. So how do you turn it when it's welded to this other part that you, how do you do that?
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:Okay.
Doyle (:with a fixture.
Brad Herda (:Yeah, yeah, I'm looking at machine half the, know, half the half of the one side and I'm gonna have this step in there. And then they complain about the some parallelism to the component. So, so this machine shaft is data may is data may and they want this other more that sitting down there that gets another shaft put through it.
Doyle (:Yeah
Doyle (:What? Weird.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:parallel within within five but the plates on the side that control that are perpendicular within 10 like
Doyle (:yeah, part stack up already is out.
Brad Herda (:I'm like, this isn't going to stack up properly because you're because there's nothing controlling a relative to the weldment anywhere. It's just a becomes a and a could be off by 10 or 15 degrees. And that's fine, according to the drawing. And it doesn't look like it's like, this is just horrible. Get rid of them. Just get rid of them because they don't know how to GD and T they're they don't know their drawings. On top of that, they have a mixture on top of that they have a mixture of fractional. They have fractional dimensions.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:Correct.
Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:They can't.
Brad Herda (:place and three place all over this drawing.
Doyle (:Yes, I love those drawings. I love.
Brad Herda (:with a title block that says fractional one plus or minus a 64th two place plus or minus 10 three plays plus or minus five. Like this is like this guy's you have you this drawing is just horrible. Absolutely horrible.
Doyle (:those are my favorite.
Reject it, reject it. That's thing when you're looking at just the dollar.
Brad Herda (:Parts to reject parts were rejected with because it's out. It's out. Like, OK, well, did you how they how they measure it? Did they put it on a CNN? Well, they I don't know. They just said it's out by twenty five thousandths. OK, does it matter? Does it really matter? Because they've made hundreds of these parts before and they were never rejected.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm. And because somebody decided to measure, now it's an issue.
Brad Herda (:When we went, I remember back when I first started, one of the first, probably year three or four at Beesaurus, on the Dipper Lips we were going through and all of a sudden we had no failures on the casting for the Dipper Lip. No premature failures, no cracking, no breaking, no nothing. New quality person comes in and says, hey, we're gonna UT and X-ray all of our castings now.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:Thank
Brad Herda (:It was like a piece of styrofoam inside there with these massive holes everywhere. And we spent the foundry spent so much time, money and energy. I'm like, what problem are we trying to solve?
Doyle (:Okay.
Swiss cheese! Cheese! Cheese!
Doyle (:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:We've been doing this for 130 years. What problem are we really trying to solve here? If you, if you, if you check more, you'll find more guaranteed.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:Guaranteed? 100%.
Brad Herda (:So how did you resolve the conflicting goals?
Doyle (:Yep.
Doyle (:hypothetically, because this is hypothetical situation.
Brad Herda (:Hypothetically, would you resolve those conflicting goals between shipping out only good parts in order to make top line revenue and then also having more sales?
Doyle (:Honestly, it for this client, it actually came down to showing dollars and cents. Hypothetically, yeah, hypothetically, thank you. Hypothetically, for this hypothetical situation, it came down to showing dollars and cents of this of the. Overall contracts, one. Versus the dollars and cents that were spent.
Brad Herda (:Hypothetically.
Doyle (:to achieve shipment of defined, like a defined quality.
So when we, and then it also had the, we also had to take into account all the times that we had to meet to show this into account. So total, the total package to actually show, look, you're setting up conflicting goals that are actually hurting you personally.
as the owner how it's impacting your personal bottom line. Are you okay with that? Because your take home as an owner is impact.
Brad Herda (:and the light bulb go off and go, huh.
Doyle (:The light bulb immediately. Yeah, the jaw dropped.
Brad Herda (:not my backyard. wouldn't do this to myself.
Doyle (:you did it to yourself just because you're being quote unquote cute to your employees of I need to create some competition. Yeah, to your own pocketbook. Okay. And we're not talking and we're not talking just a couple Benjamins.
Brad Herda (:Yeah, there's probably some digits left of the comma.
Doyle (:Yeah. And when they started seeing that, they're like, and they turn, in this hypothetical situation, they turn to their team and they're like, why didn't you tell me? And you saw half the team throw their arms up going, we tried. You didn't listen. Because they weren't breaking it down in dollars and cents for what this because that's how this person operated.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
You
You're like, for the love of Christmas, like, stop it.
Brad Herda (:All right. And so were they clear on what the, so what were the unconflicting opportunities then?
Doyle (:from a standpoint of how they revised how they set their goal. After, mean, hypothetically, it became a reset and balance of the owner recognizing, hey, if I get involved in setting these, I'm creating issues because ultimately the person didn't.
Brad Herda (:Hypothetically after we've identified...
Doyle (:They started to be smart enough to know what they didn't know and they realized that they didn't understand when they set certain things, how it really impacted others. So now hypothetically what changed is the team approach to goal setting versus a singular approach to I want this.
Brad Herda (:Gotcha.
Doyle (:And when the cross-functional team had buy-in in setting the goals, in aligning with, this makes sense. It doesn't compete with what we're doing. actually aligns. Everybody started aligning on what they were achieving. And ultimately you had a lot, because there were, I will say for lack of a better word, the synergy between division A and division B and division C,
you were able to reduce costs, you were able to reduce time and money spent to achieve the goals. You actually now have a larger return for your goal investor. Weird. I know, isn't it?
Brad Herda (:Huh. Fuckin' weird.
weird whenever he got involved and it was there and it was collaborative versus just top. So did the did after the individual recuse themselves hypothetically were they okay with the new goals?
Doyle (:Well, they recuse themselves from the ultimate quote unquote mandate, which we labeled it as your mandate versus team aligned. Yes, they were still involved in the conversation, but they were comfortable enough with the team approval where they just had to say, I agree at the end. So full approval, full decision approval wasn't
removed it was more of a, right, this is on the same line of what I'm, I see how this all works now and I approve versus the team going off and working in a vacuum and setting the goal and never telling the owner. that's the other, you know, the pendulum swings really hard the other way.
Brad Herda (:Well, well, they, regardless of what was going to happen, if the owner goes out and sets those mandates versus goals, everybody's going to go do their own thing and come up with reasons as to and document everything and every reason as to why the noise that the owner is likely going to create throughout the year prevented them from achieving the goal that the mandate, I should say that was set because they are going to look out, they're going to look for every opportunity to,
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:have the I told you so card versus we did it cards.
Doyle (:Mm hmm. Yep, absolutely.
Brad Herda (:So hopefully your blood, let your blood stop boiling there, Mr. Doyle.
Doyle (:Absolutely.
It does a little. Just have to say, get a little worked up about those things.
Brad Herda (:I see that. I see that. Well, you enjoy Super Bowl Sunday watching stupid commercials and eating bad food and probably a bad football game, potentially. I know I'm rooting for the Seahawks. You're rooting for the Patriots, tomato, tomato. It's like, OK. All the reason I'm rooting for the... All the reason I want this Seattle win is just this.
Doyle (:Mm.
Doyle (:E?
Brad Herda (:Sam Darnold's Here's the Thing.
Doyle (:I mean, that is a phenomenal story from, we can make that for a future episode, honestly, on true leadership of a team and what the impact leaders and owners have on their teammates. And when people aren't in the right system, what that actually can look like. And when they put in the right system, what it looks like.
Brad Herda (:Well, he was in the right system with the purple team. He was. He played very, very well. But they said, nah, we're going go with that Michigan guy.
Doyle (:Well, yep, I'm going back to the green team.
Doyle (:you know, that's all right. That's different story, right? But well, I'm just going back to the green team. Right, you know where I'm headed with that. anyways, for a different show.
Brad Herda (:And that didn't work out so well so far. So far.
I know. I know. I know where you're going. Yes, I know exactly where you're going. All right, sir. Have a awesome weekend and we'll talk soon. Thanks.
Doyle (:All right, sounds great. Later.
