Episode 89
Wages Are Not The Problem With Matt Vetter
Explore the Evolution of the Construction Industry with Matt Vetter. His insights show the transformative journey of construction and the evolving perceptions of blue-collar labor.
One of the striking aspects of the conversation was the discussion of generational differences and how they impact work in the construction industry. This opened the door to discussing the cultural shift within the construction industry and the importance of aligning core values and culture with the expectations of younger generations.
The conversation also delved into the challenges of attracting new talent to the construction industry. Matt highlighted the historical stigmas and misconceptions surrounding blue-collar work, which have impacted the industry's ability to attract and retain talent. Furthermore, the diminishing focus on trade education in high schools has contributed to a lack of interest and awareness among younger individuals.
An honest and open conversation transpired regarding labor shortages and wage expectations within the construction industry. Matt stressed that while wages are important, they are not the sole factor driving the attraction of younger workers to the industry. He cautioned against artificially inflated wages and emphasized the importance of showcasing the overall culture and core values of the organization, rather than solely relying on monetary incentives to attract new talent.
Matt shared strategic insights into bridging the gap between recruiting the younger generation and addressing misconceptions about blue-collar work. He indicated that creating opportunities for educators, parents, and students to gain firsthand exposure to the construction industry can significantly impact perceptions and interest. Furthermore, leveraging platforms like social media and hosting industry tours can further raise awareness and interest in blue-collar careers.
Highlights:
- Attraction of New Generation to the Construction Industry. The need to attract new, young talent to the construction industry. Challenges in attracting new blood to the industry. Efforts to promote the construction industry through educational programs and community involvement.
- Strategies for hiring and retaining young talent in the construction industry. Importance of culture, core values, and work-life balance in attracting younger workers. Addressing wage expectations and the impact of inflated wages on the industry
- Advice for Business Owners and Parents on how to attract and hire the younger generation. The role of parents in influencing their children's career choices and the need for educating parents about opportunities in the trades.
Connect with our Guest:
Matt Vetter
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Steve Doyle:
Brad Herda:
This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:
OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy
Transcript
Welcome to Blue Collar BS, a podcast that busts the popular myth that we can't find good people, highlighting how the different generations of today, the boomers, Gen X, millennials and Gen Z, are redefining work so that the industrial revolution that started in the US stays in the US. The Blue Collar BS podcast helps blue collar business owners like you build a business that'll thrive for decades to come by turning that blue collar bullshit into some blue collar business solutions.
Brad Herda [:In this episode, you're going to learn, meet people where they're at. Understand that wages are not the problem with the current employment situation. Be slow to hire and grit and perseverance are key to long term success.
Matt [:Our guest today is Matt Better, a go getter and hustler who has bloomer traits, willing to accept the new construction world. We hope you enjoy the show. Welcome back to the show, Brad. How are you doing, my friend?
Brad Herda [:I am wonderful today, Mr. Doyle. I am absolutely fantastic. It is a great fall day here. It's October. We got college football going. You got two u of m guys ish on the show, sitting here with Badger red, even though I got Badger red and Kansas Blue on today. It's all good.
Brad Herda [:College football live and well.
Matt [:Yeah, it's awesome. It's awesome. So, Brad, who do we got on the show today?
Brad Herda [:Today on the show, we are blessed to have Matt Vetter. He has gone from construction foreman and lead carpenter to the president of Schaefer Construction that has a wide variety of interests in the construction field. Has his own podcast called the construction corner, and we are grateful to have him on today. Matt, thank you very much for being here.
Matt [:Guys, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be on your show.
Matt [:Excited? Yeah, we.
Brad Herda [:Come on. No one's ever excited to be here. It's a Friday afternoon. They'd much better be somewhere else. Come on.
Matt [:You said you were blessed to have me, so I had to follow suit.
Brad Herda [:We are blessed to have you, but I don't know if you're excited to be here.
Matt [:Looking forward, before I forget, which generation do you best fit in with?
Matt [:Well, I think by technicality, I may be on the conversion side of the millennials, but I tend not to identify as such. I'm a little older than that in my mind, anyways.
Matt [:Yeah, right there with you. Right there with. You definitely have the traits of a gen xer.
Matt [:Yeah, absolutely.
Brad Herda [:Yeah. Steve, you don't, but that's okay. We'll move on from there. From time to time.
Matt [:We'll move on.
Brad Herda [:So, Matt, we were blessed to get introduced through a connection, I want to say I think it was through Ron and others or wherever it happened to come from, I'm not sure. But you are very active in the construction space. You're very active out on social. Where did your passion for construction and trades come from, given that your educational background? Started out in psychology?
Matt [:Yeah. So it's a long, kind of sordid past that got me here. But I started building houses in my late high school years. I carried lumber around job sites for a long time is really what I did. And I started my first company 19 or 20 years old as a residential carpentry company. We did additions, we did renovations, finished basements, decks, garages, smaller scale things, all the stuff like that. I went to college. I left college, went to college again.
Matt [:Left college again. All the while I'm still working in construction in some form or fashion. And I kind of caught the bug. Right. And I never wanted to leave after my last go round with my college experience, I kind of got the bug up my rear to make sure I finished.
Brad Herda [:We are listed as an explicit show, so that's okay here.
Matt [:Oh, good. Then I won't have to refrain anymore. I got the bug at my ass. I'm stubborn as can be by nature. So after being politely asked to leave school the second time, and I say that with air quotes, they told me not to come back, I said, the hell with that. I'm going to show them wrong. So I put myself back through school. Psychology was an interest of mine.
Matt [:It was also a quick means to an end. So I did graduate from U of M as fast as humanly possible. I got a bachelor's in psychology and I haven't used it since.
Brad Herda [:I will challenge you that you have used it every.
Matt [:You. I like you, Brad. You kind of echo what I say to when I'm talking with my parents. I do use it every day. And in construction, especially the commercial world, you have to deal with all different types of people. Right. As president of my company, I'm out talking to the day laborers and I'm out talking to the ceos and executives of the firms we're building buildings for. So, yes, to be able to relate to people on all different levels, the degree path didn't hurt in that realm, but certainly not the typical pathway for a construction guy.
Brad Herda [:No, definitely not at all. Yeah. Even though it's relevant, it's very relevant because you do have to make those things. So as you have gone through that transition and as you've gone through your growth and ranks right, from doing your own thing, carrying lumber around, having crews, doing things now, doing what you're doing with current organization. How have you seen when you first started, although it was your organization, I'm sure you got hazed by all the other trades all the time back in the day without shit on. How are you seeing that change today from your business perspective, as what's acceptable and not acceptable?
Matt [:Well, first off, my first company was a tax shelter for the boss that I really worked for. So let's just pull the curtain back, okay? He didn't want to pay payroll taxes, so I started my own company very young, so I could still work for him. Wow. So I was not the boss. I had my own company, but I was the lowest guy in the totem pole for a long time.
Brad Herda [:You were the CEO of your own company. What are you talking about?
Matt [:Yeah, the CEO. I was the head janitor. I was the whipping boy, the runt. I got my ass kicked every day. And the construction world is a tough one to break into for a new guy, but it should. That's what helps us. That's what teaches you grit and perseverance and shows you how to grow and succeed. And that's the path that I went through anyway.
Matt [:So, yes, when I started, it was brutal. It was guys stealing your lunch, guys locking in the Porta John. All the stories you hear, it's 100% true. How is it now? I think it's probably lessened a bit, but truth be told, we're starving for new bodies and new youth to come into the industry. So I think part of that hazing, part of that kind of gruff, alpha male mentality that pervaded construction for so long has been. I don't think it's gone away by any means. But I think it's been quieted down a bit to kind of open the door and at least convince more people to give it a shot, if that makes any sense.
Brad Herda [:Yeah, makes perfect sense.
Matt [:So knowing that there's been some changes with how we in the construction industry kind of behave around others, what are some things that you're seeing with the attraction of new, fresh blood into the industry?
Matt [:It's hard. It's very hard, because we could go down a rabbit hole of politics and the educational problems in this country, and we still probably wouldn't touch on everything. But the day we started pulling shop class out of high school was the day that the trade started getting a bad name. And when I was in high school, it was called vocec back then, trade school, now but when I was in high school, it was the junkies and the burnouts that went to Vogtech. It was never a pathway that anyone suggested you go down unless you got the shit end of the stick and you had no other choice. I don't know that a whole lot has changed in that end, other than now. I think the trade schools are finally starting to kind of climb back out and get some more respect. We do a lot of work locally.
Matt [:We speak at high schools. We bring kids out to job sites and kind of tour them around in a safe manner, of course. But we do everything we can to get exposure to our industry because we are in such dire need of new blood. But what I think a lot of kids, and I'm going to keep calling them kids because I'm old enough not to do that, but a lot of kids. Depends who you're talking to.
Brad Herda [:Let's just be honest.
Matt [:I'm not a millennial, damn it.
Matt [:Yeah. Listen, pops, we don't need your opinion right now.
Brad Herda [:Yeah, okay, whatever. I am the oldest on the show right now, so it's okay.
Matt [:Why the wisest too, right?
Brad Herda [:I wouldn't say that. Talk to my wife.
Matt [:But we do a shit job of advertising and talking up the industry and talking up the trades in schools and in the boardrooms, too. And construction is not just the guy digging a ditch or the guy swinging a hammer. And that's certainly a way you can go. There's nothing wrong with that. That's how I started. A lot of people start. But the construction industry as a whole has gotten so massive and incorporates, really, every educational track, short medical and law, or even law can be incorporated, but it incorporates so much that people don't think about, from sales to marketing to social media to all of the videography and photography that goes on. There's so much in the construction world that people don't know about until they're in the construction world.
Matt [:And that is a real tragedy, because it hasn't helped us at all in the last 20 years to recruit people that want to be in this world.
Brad Herda [:Right, but let's also be honest. You talked about the industry not doing themselves any favors. So going back through it, even on the manufacturing, we've told people for two decades, they're not good enough as well.
Matt [:Right? Yeah.
Brad Herda [:So when you came into that industry and humping lumber and doing different things, all the older guys were saying, you're not good enough, you're not good enough, you're not good enough. And then colleges and universities and everybody started to say, oh, this is a better path. This is something different. This is what that could be. And the industry just said, oh, we got enough people. There's plenty of people around here. And nobody took that approach of looking at the math and saying, oh, guess what? At some point, we're screwed, and it's time to pay the piper.
Matt [:And we're here right now 100% correct, Brad. I mean, we would drive through town and my parents would point the guy in the hard hat and boots and be like, you don't want to end up like him. He did something wrong. He's working way too hard. When in reality, that's bullshit. And we've known about this problem for decades. That's what really chaps my ass in this. In that we've known about it.
Matt [:We've been bitching about it for 20 plus years. It's just that now we're starting to see all those things come to fruition, and now we're seeing the massive labor shortages and all of these problems that we knew was coming as an industry. But we talked about it. We never did anything. So now it's almost like we're racing back against the tide, trying to catch up and trying to get more interest. And it's a tough road, right, to get people interested, because what our parents don't teach us is that that guy wearing the boots and the hard hat might be making a quarter million dollars a year, but you would never know it by looking at him because he doesn't look like an attorney. He doesn't look like a doctor. And that's the industry.
Brad Herda [:He has the lake house. He has the boat. He has the things, he has all that other stuff. It's the quiet millionaire next door type scenario. Grab my lunch pail and go to work every day. And that is perfectly okay. Perfectly okay to go out. And so you're in the Detroit, Michigan area as well, right? Is that how.
Brad Herda [:And, Steve, go ahead and comment on this, too. How are you guys attacking bringing younger people in here? I know here locally in Wisconsin, I see all of our folks advertising the dollars, the dollars, the dollars. And they're not getting any traction. Are you guys advertising and getting traction by wages or how are you guys going through to bring those people in the door?
Matt [:Wages is not it. Surprisingly. When I was a kid, you told me I'd make more money. You don't have to deal anymore. Sign me up right now. But that's not the case with kids these days. It doesn't think now it's more so it's culture, it's core values. I hate the whole work life balance bullshit.
Matt [:There is no such thing. But there is something.
Brad Herda [:Well, there is for the individual contributor, not the owner and the president of the company.
Matt [:Yeah, to a point. Right. But what we try to do is make work not so damn painful and show them that, okay, we're doing this. We're doing an honest day's work. We're doing hard work. We work really hard. We're really good at what we do, but we have a ton of fun doing it. And we have this culture that beats all else.
Matt [:And it's a family atmosphere. Right. We don't have a ton of turnover. We're slow to hire. We do that on purpose so that we make sure that people are bringing in, fit our mold and fit with us. And to show that to kids, to high school or college age kids, looking to get a start has been a benefit that we've seen. We've seen it help on the recruiting side. Okay.
Brad Herda [:Yeah.
Brad Herda [:And I would echo what Matt's saying. What we have found with my clients is it's never about the money. First thing. First thing is always, who am I working with and how do they behave? How are they going to treat me? So it's more important for when we're interviewing to bring in the younger group to actually meet the crew, that they would actually meet the crews that they could be working with and actually get their opinion on how well they're driving and give them some activities and some time to bond together during the interview process so that there's a sense of camaraderie and teamwork. That's what we've been finding a lot with our younger generation. Yes. And what that does, though, is it also showcases the culture, and it showcases the values. When you start bringing in and you're like, no, this is a team.
Matt [:We may be dysfunctional at times, just like a family, but we're here as a team. We have each other's back. And then the wages, per se. Most of my clients do pay a lot higher than, like, an entry, typical entry level job. So starting general laborers are typically $25 or more. Most general laborers are not starting at $25 an hour. So they start at $25 an hour. They get full medical paid for.
Matt [:They get company vehicles, they get gas cards. So we take care of all those intangible things so that what they have to focus on when they leave work is their life, their family, their friends. They don't have to worry about how they're going to pay for their medical, if something were to happen, they don't have to worry about, hey, if I get sick, am I going to get paid? No, everything is taken care of. So what do they have to focus on when they're outside of work? Their life, their family. And so we give them that sense of, it's more that sense of relief that they have, that they don't have to worry about any of those things if they were to come to happen. Because typically what I've been finding is most companies are not providing that level to attract that specific group of people.
Brad Herda [:Well, good on you guys. That's cool.
Matt [:Well, I'm going to push back a little bit on that, too, though. I do think the last three years, especially have artificially inflated wages and more so wage expectations. Yes, I think that puts us in a really dangerous spot, because, sure, yes, in the last three years, it's been, grab everybody you can find. Doesn't matter. Pay them whatever they need to. Come on. But what's going to happen is when the economy takes a shit again, which it will, sooner or later it will. Those are the people who are making those artificially high wages without the experience to back it up, are going to be the first ones kicked out on the street, and they're going to be wondering what the hell happened.
Brad Herda [:It depends on the timing, because those with the artificially high wages today potentially are the ones with the experience in two to five years, and there aren't any boomers behind them to support that. So they are the experience. I mean, we've created this massive, massive cavern of knowledge and wisdom and experience that is going to be very difficult to overcome if all of a sudden we take that approach of, we're going to keep the high dollar, high experience, high wisdom, late gen X or early boomer? Like late boomer, early Gen X person whose body's beaten, who can't produce as quickly and all those other things, versus the younger millennial or even the younger Gen Z, that is, or older Gen Z now, that is maybe 80% of that same wage. But without the experience, there's going to be a lot of challenging conversations coming up inside those organizations because of that very thing. Steve and I did a, we had an episode on wage stagnation, and I just had this conversation with a client this morning. They had an employee come up, say, hey, when do raises come out? Like, yeah, are they asking because your volume has increased? Or are they asking because it's just that time of year? It was one individual because her volume increased like double and she's like, hey, what's going on? But yeah, that wage stagnation is coming. It's going to be a real thing. That typical 2% a year isn't going to happen because we've overpaid for the last three years, 30% to 40%.
Matt [:Right?
Matt [:Yes.
Brad Herda [:All right, Matt, what is your most humorous construction story over the last 60 days?
Matt [:Oh, boy, there's a lot.
Brad Herda [:Whether it was your project, somebody else's project, whatever, driving by. What's the most humorous thing you've seen in the last 60 days? You go, holy shit, I can't believe this actually happened. Maybe not humorous and maybe it wasn't funny funny, but you know what I'm saying, right?
Matt [:Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of what the hell just happens moments, right? And I guess they're funny now when we look back at them and nobody got hurt, but not on our job sites, because we are absolute sticklers for that sort of thing. But there's some competitor sites near us. One in particular that I can think of. It's a fitness facility that it's been under construction for every bit of three years. I don't understand it. They do a little bit, and they come and they go. But these guys this summer were actually setting steel with straps off the end of a skytrack. And I mean, it's big steel.
Matt [:It's not like lifting a know, a wood truss. It's big ass steel beams and joists. And I would drive by and watch these guys, and there was only two or three of them ever on the know, no hard hats, no nothing. They were wearing, you know, sandals, and they're swinging steel with, you know. Meanwhile, on our job site, we've had OSHA show up three times in the last two months just for a random spot check. But these yahoos are down the street from us playing cowboys. So luckily we don't see a lot of that sort of stuff around us, but it's still there. And I haven't heard of anyone getting hurt, so that's good.
Matt [:Obviously that would eliminate the humor from it real fast. But there's stuff like that. You see that a lot, too, when you get the residential guys trying to play in the commercial market. Yes, I say that with all due respect, because I was one of them, but it's a hard market to shift from. Usually it's different.
Brad Herda [:It's very different. Expectations are different. The communication is different. Electrical is electrical, but it's not. Plumbing is plumbing, but it's not. The codes are different. It's just very different world.
Matt [:What advice would you give to another business owner looking to hire the younger generation?
Matt [:I would say you got to get out there. You got to get your face out there. You got to get your company's face out there. And that's through social media. That's through. And being engaged in your local community in high school career fairs. College career fairs. We started an internship program a few years ago specifically geared towards high school kids.
Matt [:So 1718 year old kids and there's limitations on what we can have them do obviously based on age but things like that you have to meet these kids where they're hanging out. Right. And as much as I f and hate everything to do with social media it's a necessary evil. Right? I'm very active.
Brad Herda [:Either you're good at it or you got somebody doing it for you that's good at it.
Matt [:I do it all still and I hate it. I hate it with a passion but it serves a purpose. Right. And it's not going anywhere whether I like it or not. So you got to meet people where they're at and I think that's the biggest thing that I see frankly my competition not doing. So strike that last 30 seconds from record and just keep doing what you're doing guys because it's good job.
Matt [:So in following up on that what advice would you give to either the young kids that are in high school or even their parents regarding thoughts about getting into the trades?
Matt [:Parents are where we got to start. That's a great thing to bring up I think. Steve. It's the parents that typically drive the kids direction at least until they reach a certain age. And like I mentioned earlier with my generation we would drive by sites and people would look down on these blue collar workers you millennials.
Brad Herda [:I don't know.
Matt [:We got to educate the parents as much as we do the kids. Right? Yes.
Brad Herda [:Completely agree. And it's about getting the opportunity to show that when you bring your community work do your community work. Do you put out a hey why don't your parents drive by? We're going to keep the site open after 05:00 do a little tour show what's going on and bring the parents around to see that with some of the kids at all or don't you guys take that approach at all?
Matt [:We haven't done that. I'm going to write that down because that is a great idea. Brad. Something we've done similar things during the day not necessarily with parents and I know that's contrary to what I just said but most parents are working during the day, but we've done it with teachers. So we'll bring out groups of educators along with the students and give them in depth, behind the curtains tours of job sites, kind of with the intent that they're going to go back. The teachers are going to keep pounding this back into the kids, and the kids eventually tell their parents. But bringing the parents out after hours, or even during hours, is probably a great way to go about it.
Brad Herda [:Just something to ponder there. So, January 2021, you decided to enter this fray of the podcast world as well, starting being on the construction corner. So what motivated you to get into this insanity, and what do you enjoy most about it?
Matt [:I joined the podcast in January 21. My co host, Dylan Mitchell, actually started the podcast, I think a year prior to that. And I had met Dylan through a networking group. We're both a part of. The whole podcasting thing has interested me for a long time. And I actually called him one day and said, hey, you do this stuff? He had interviewed me on his show. I said, what the hell do I need to buy to go and do my own? What do I need to get? How do I do this? And he was, well, go on Amazon, buy a $15 mic, and then why don't you just join my show as co host? I said, well, shit, that's easy. Okay, done.
Matt [:And now here we are. Whatever it is, two and a half years later and still going strong, I've upgraded my shit to a little more than the $15 Amazon mic. But it's fun. It's a good medium. We get to have great conversations like these. We focus very broadly on the construction world. So we bring in marketers, recruiters, insurance guys, bonding agents, trades, obviously, everyone involved in this wide web of construction that we play in. So it's a fun medium, and it's got benefits for me, too, personally, right? It helps you learn how to talk to people.
Matt [:It, it gets you having interesting conversations. And right back to meeting people where they're at. Kids are on social media, they're listening to podcasts. Nobody reads magazines anymore. Nobody's looking at a newspaper. So you got to get in where you fit in. And this is one of the ways that we do that.
Brad Herda [:That's awesome.
Matt [:That's great.
Brad Herda [:Somebody wants to follow up with you, find out what Schaeffer Construction does, follow the podcast. How do they find you, where they find you, how do we get a hold of you if you want to? Some young kid in Michigan. Oh, by the way, Steve, I was going through our numbers. Yeah, we need more Michigan viewers and listeners. So hopefully Matt can support you on that growth opportunity, because I think Michigan's behind Canada.
Matt [:Oh, boy. It could be.
Matt [:My followers in India.
Brad Herda [:Yeah, you're big in India. Steve's got a big following in India. But how do people find you? Where do they get you?
Matt [:Easiest way to find me is on. You know, I'm on all the platforms, but LinkedIn, I'm most active, and they can kind of go from there. All of my links are within LinkedIn.
Brad Herda [:Awesome. Do you have any final parting opportunities? Our audience typically is going to be in that 42 to 29 year old range. Do you have anything for those that might be in the white collar world that says, hey, I've been thinking about make dipping my toe. Any final thoughts for them to say, come on over to the other side.
Matt [:Do it. Just do it. I wish I hadn't waited as long as I did to make the big moves that I've made in my life. If I had started this earlier, there's no telling where I'd be at this level. Like I said, it's an industry I love. It's one of the few industries that goes nowhere. Right. You can't automate construction, no matter how hard we know.
Matt [:Those bricklaying, effing robots, they're really cool to see on YouTube. They don't build shit for real. You can't do it. And while we may have aspects of construction that get more automated throughout the years, and I hope we do, and tech comes in, you can't replace the people building the ship. And as good as we build buildings, they still have a lifespan, which means somebody's got to come back in to do renovations. Somebody's got to tear that thing down and build a new one. And it's quite a unique industry in that faction that it just goes nowhere. So give it a shot.
Matt [:That would be my advice.
Brad Herda [:Awesome. Thank you very much for being here today. We appreciate it. Having two millennials on the show at one time has been fantastic.
Matt [:Yeah, I'm not sure I'm liking that title.
Brad Herda [:It's happened before. It's okay. It's all good. We appreciate it, Matt. Have a great rest of your weekend. And I do know, hopefully, that Michigan Ohio state game coming up in a few weeks. We'll see how that goes. It's been good last two times, but we'll see what happens this year.
Matt [:Go, blue. I appreciate you having me on. I agree with you. All right, man.
Brad Herda [:We'll talk to you guys later.
Matt [:Thanks, guys.
Brad Herda [:Thanks. Thank you for listening to Blue Collar BS brought to you by vision Forward business solutions and professional business Coaching, Inc. If you'd like to learn more on today's topic, just reach out to Steve Doyle or myself, Brad Herda. Please like share rate and review this show, as feedback is the only way we can get better. Let's keep blue collar businesses strong for generations to come.
