What Is The Business Trilogy Greg DeSimone

Brad Herda [: 00:00:00

Welcome to Blue Collar B's, a podcast that busts the popular myth that we can't find good people, highlighting how the different generations of today, the boomers, Gen X, millennials, and Gen Z, are redefining work so that the industrial revolution that started in the US stays in the US. The Blue Collar B's podcast helps blue collar business owners like you build a business that'll thrive for decades to come by turning that blue collar B's into some blue collar business solutions.

Brad Herda [: 00:00:32

In this episode, you're going to learn about the business trilogy. For transferable businesses, the importance of comparing yourself to your industry. Failing and scar tissue is an asset and retiring in place. The good and the bad.

Brad Herda [: 00:00:46

Our guest today is Greg Desimone, not your typical CPA who sees the value of a multigenerational business and the importance of being transferable. We hope you enjoy the show. Welcome back to this episode of Blue Collar B's. How's it going, Brad?

Brad Herda [: 00:01:04

It was fantastic. I hit the button a little early for you, didn't I? You did. Let's go, let's go, let's go.

Brad Herda [: 00:01:12

So, you know, we're enjoying this beautiful day here in February, even though the show might air in July or August.

Brad Herda [: 00:01:20

January. Dumbass.

Brad Herda [: 00:01:22

Hey, hold on. Let me grab. Let me grab my beer. Hold on.

Brad Herda [: 00:01:27

Call me the Boomer. Really? Okay, great.

Brad Herda [: 00:01:30

Yeah, right? So, you know, we're enjoying this, you know, cool kind of gross weather here in the midwest. And because we're here in still in late January, we have this game coming up on Sunday.

Brad Herda [: 00:01:47

There is a game.

Brad Herda [: 00:01:48

And I heard you're a Lions fan, and I'm still trying to ponder how somebody in Wisconsin is an actual Lions fan.

Brad Herda [: 00:01:56

Cooler, uniforms. When you're growing up, man, it's that simple. Just that simple.

Brad Herda [: 00:02:00

Wow.

Brad Herda [: 00:02:00

Dumb g or a cool looking blue and silver lion. That's. It's that simple? That easy.

Brad Herda [: 00:02:06

Wow, man. That's.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:02:08

That's.

Brad Herda [: 00:02:09

I would never have guessed that at all.

Brad Herda [: 00:02:11

Oh, there you go. Yeah. It's like how many licks take to get to the middle of lollipop? One, two, three. We'll never know. Anyhow, our guest today. Our guest today, as he's sitting there completely impatient.

Brad Herda [: 00:02:24

Yup.

Brad Herda [: 00:02:25

Correct. D. Simone, 25 years of experience as a CPA in finance departments, venture, private equity firms, publicly funded companies. Founded Catapulted Advisory Group in 2009 to guide successful family businesses, focus on what's important and prioritize key activities, drive value to ensure effective succession and exit plans. Catapult has the last 15 years evolved and began offering market analysis, valuation services, traditional m and a, etcetera. Greg is also part of the same community we are with focal point as part of our franchises, with focal point business coaching, and he supports us with a lot of those other things. And, you know, we can't hold this against him. Too bad.

Brad Herda [: 00:03:05

You know, he's got his accounting degree from Boston College. If you're a hockey guy, that's a big thing when you're out here. If you're, like, in that Notre Dame world or other things, it's not so. Such good. Not good mix, but that's okay.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:03:16

Hey, Greg.

Brad Herda [: 00:03:16

Welcome to the show.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:03:17

Thanks for having me. That's such a great introduction.

Brad Herda [: 00:03:23

They're your words. They're not your. They're your words. Come on. They are. You typed them or somebody typed them for you.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:03:32

The enthusiasm you have for it is awesome.

Brad Herda [: 00:03:36

Hey, if you looked at my profile coming in, you know, whoo. Is way on the freaking bottom here, right? I'm not the woo guy.

Brad Herda [: 00:03:43

Yeah. Oh, Brad is the woo guy. Whoo. So, Greg, just before we keep going here, and I forget, which generation do you fit in with?

Greg DeSimone [: 00:03:56

I'm generation x. I'm early generation x.

Brad Herda [: 00:04:00

Awesome.

Brad Herda [: 00:04:01

Don't do it.

Brad Herda [: 00:04:02

I'm just gonna go. Go a certain route with Brad.

Brad Herda [: 00:04:05

Don't do it.

Brad Herda [: 00:04:05

I'm not gonna do it today. Not on this show. Not on this show. So, Greg, for our listeners, help our listeners understand how you got into the advisory role in the transition planning.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:04:23

Sure. A couple reasons. One is I grew up in a family business. I ended up not going into the business just for sanity sake and make sure that I still had a relationship with my dad, because him and I are basically the same person. And I would have been treated as a. I started in the warehouse when I was 14 years old, and I would have been treated as the 14 year old, even as a 54 year old right now. So we both mutually agreed. Well, I'm gonna say it's mutual.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:04:48

He didn't really ask me to join, but it was mutual. But my younger brother went into that business, and the plan was always for my dad to transition it to him. The transition didn't go well, and my dad ultimately had to liquidate the business. I actually helped them liquidate the business on about five years ago. Now it's not so bad. Is that my dad actually, when they were making a lot of money, put a lot of plans in place where he was saving money. So he had a good retirement plan that he funded through the business, so he didn't need the business to be sold to actually fund it. It would have been nice.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:05:26

He probably should have got more for it. But it wasn't catastrophic. It was just a missed opportunity. So I saw, like, how that happened, or I was watching that happen. My dad didn't know that was going to happen. I could see it happening, the way he was integrating my younger brother and the responsibilities he was giving him. And as I started doing the coaching, so I started as a coach, like, in fact, 2009, focal point in catapult. Catapults, my personal brand.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:05:51

But I was working under the focal point franchise, and I just gravitated towards the failing business because of my background. And when I was looking at the clients I started working with, the ones I really looked forward to with the family businesses. Early on, I worked with clients that my tagline was family successful family businesses that get stuck from time to time. And the more I dealt with family businesses, the stuck was, how do we go from this generation to the next? How do I get the kids ready? Will the kids be ready in time? Do I sell the business and just leave them money? Or do I give them an asset to manage what's better? So those are the issues that evolved from just helping families that were stuck. The stuck became the transition.

Brad Herda [: 00:06:34

And so knowing that, how has that helped shape what your practice? Kind of like how you're helping people now with that transition period?

Greg DeSimone [: 00:06:44

I start every conversation with a perspective client, whether it's they see who I am through my online presence or they get referred into me through my professional network, is basically, what is. What are you looking to do? When. When do you want to retire? How do you want to get out? What are your thoughts? The other thing I also start with is I'm a big proponent of having a valuation. I believe evaluation is a benchmark that needs to be put in place to understand what the value of business is and what are your best options sometimes. And the reason I say this is my dad's business got an offer 20 something years ago, and it was a two. It was. The offer was two times what it was actually worth. My dad was only, like, 49, 50 years old at the time.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:07:31

So actually, now I'm thinking about it. It's about 30 years ago. He flies. Yeah, but he passed on it because he said, I'm 49 years old, and I don't know what I want to do. I think I want my son to come into this. It's too early for me to decide to, but in his mind, he always thought that 5 million was always there. There's a $5 million offer versus a two and a half million dollar offer back in 30 years ago. But he always had that mind that his business was worth what's worth five minutes, wasn't it? Was worth less.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:08:00

So his decision making process all along was thinking, I always have this money in the bank. And he did. So I like to have people understand what the business is worth, understand what that asset, because usually that's one of your biggest family's biggest asset is their business. It's just illiquid and they kind of ignore it when it comes to do their financial plans and their retirement plan. So I do two things. What is your exit plan? When do you want to retire? How do you want to retire? What's that look like? And then what is the asset that you know is your biggest asset, but I have no idea what it's worth it starting there.

Brad Herda [: 00:08:31

So between Brad and I, obviously we work with various business owners in the trades. And I know at least in some of, some of the people that I've had conversations with, you have one right now.

Brad Herda [: 00:08:45

That is.

Brad Herda [: 00:08:46

I have one big one, but I handle. I have one big one. I actually have three right now, but one big one. The clients or prospects that I've talked to specifically around, hey, around exit planning or transition planning, if you will, they're like, yeah, I'm not ready to retire yet, but I I want to get rid of my business in three years. And we'll talk about that when I'm ready to retire. So knowing how we have conversations like this, and we're laughing right now about that because we know where this is headed, how important is it to start talking about transitioning a year before, five years before? So this is kind of like a two pronged question. When should we be talking and how early should we be talking about transition planning?

Greg DeSimone [: 00:09:40

It's never too early. It's sometimes you're not ready for it because you're in the middle of building the business. You're worried about other financial commitments, getting ready for college, paying off a mortgage, whatever, but never too early. But the way when I talk to clients, and they're typically more and more, they're younger and younger than talking to them. I'm talking to a lot of owners in the gen X that are in their fifties who have a different mindset. They're not like the boomers who want to leave a bunch of money to their kids. Gen X is sitting there saying, hey, I want to use this money with my family while we're all able to. I'd rather help them buy a home now than leave them a million dollars when they're 70 and already have their home.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:10:24

So I'm kind of off track there, because I was going on a tangent there. No, you're good.

Brad Herda [: 00:10:28

Nope, that's all perfect. You're on. You're on the right path.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:10:31

So I would sit there and say the timing, when I stopped these timing is, when do you think you want to retire? What is your time like? How much do you have? Ten years in the tank? Do you have 20 years in the tank? Do you have one year in the tank? And I tell them, once they tell me that, I'm like, okay, what are our options to do this? Now? You can sell or give it to your kids or now, are your kids ready? Is the market ready? When I tell them this, I said, let's just assume it's going to take you a year to sell it or transition to your family. You're just not going to say, tomorrow we're going to do it. So it's at least a year to do that. And if you transition to your family is probably a little bit longer, because there's a lot more things to do besides getting them emotionally ready and operationally ready. Uh, you have to worry about all the legal issues and how you gonna transfer all that stuff. Correct. And you have to worry about the family members that are in the business and the family members that are outside the business, because everyone thinks the other side's getting the better deal. If your asset isn't where it needs to be, the business isn't where it needs to be.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:11:35

You have to look at, like, when I said, you start with the valuation, you say, okay, my. My business is worth 5 million. I need to be worth ten. Well, what do you have to do to go from five to ten? Besides all the other transitional issues and getting the team ready and the family ready, all that, how do you get the asset to be worth? What do you need it to be worth to fulfill your financial needs? Well, like, I used this example for, like, weight loss. If you go to your trainer and say, hey, I want to lose 52 pounds, and the guy says, yeah, no problem. We're going to put you on this diet. We'll work out every two or three times a week. You lose a pound a week.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:12:07

By the end of the year, you'll be let down. 52 pounds. No problem. I mean, like, yeah, that's not, it's not it. I have a reunion in about three weeks. Can you cut me lose 52 pounds? In three weeks. This is kind of what happens with people when they're trying to sell their business. Like, hey, I want to retire next week.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:12:23

I need to get 10 million. I'm like, well, you can't just say, I want 10 million of your business. You got to put a plan in place to get it there. And so anything's really possible, but you have to align your goals with your timeframe and make sure that it's workable. So I always tell people it's probably a year once you decide that you're actually going to leave, the day that you say, I'm going to leave, whether you're going to sell it or you're going to transition, it's about a year. And then you have to figure out how long is it going to take for you to get ready for that. And there's another car if you're going to sell it versus going to family, you got to add, how long do you want to stay on afterwards in order to maximize your payoff?

Brad Herda [: 00:12:56

So I'm going to take this down to the younger end, right? Because we have a lot more younger Gen Z business owners than we've ever probably had before, particularly in the blue collar world, because they're able to leave large companies and go do their thing and be a pain in their ass and accumulate some significant wealth. What would be the couple things you would say to those younger owners to be prepared for? Cause if you're disrupting an industry, somebody's going to come along and try to have you stop disrupting an industry. What would you tell those younger owners? What advice would you give them? To be prepared or see the opportunity and not have the ego get in the way of, of an opportunity?

Greg DeSimone [: 00:13:42

Sure. I start with every client. There's three things that are going to make your business valuable and transferable. There's a lot of other things you have to do with a deeper diagnostic, but the holy Trinity is your business has got to be growing. Do you have infrastructure and you have processes in place so that you can grow? And when I say grow, I don't mean if your industry is growing at 10%, you can't grow at 10%. You have to grow at 15% or 20. Growth is relative to what the industry averages. It's not to what you're doing year over year, because if the whole industry is going up, you're not really growing, you're just keeping pace.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:14:19

So growth really is, are you doing better than the industry? So that's the first piece. The second piece is putting together a team that you can rely on, an infrastructure where decisions are being pushed down, that you're not relying on. You're not the only decision maker. You're not the only person who can get things done. You're not the only person with the client relationships. You're not the only person with the supplier relationships that you have an infrastructure. And I've said this many times before, I think a lot of people take pride in, like, how smart they are and what they can accomplish. I personally think there should be more people should take more pride in being able to transfer their knowledge to another group of people, to their management team, to their lower management team, to their staff level.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:15:07

If you can transfer your know how down to a group, another group of employees, that they can take responsibility and have accountability and deliver results the way you want them to, they can solve problems without you in the room because you've trained them how to look at these problems, how to solve these problems that I think creates more value than anything else, probably even more than growth. Then the third thing is processes and infrastructure. I say to have the old indian folklore go from generation to generation, and it would lose a little bit each year. You want to have these processes where they're documented and people understand. So if someone leaves, choose a New England reference, although it's not really trendy right now with Bell Belichick. Next man up. His, and I think all good coaches in all sports has said, hey, we're not going to let injuries be an issue to us. Next person up.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:16:00

You got to step up and you got to be ready when your time comes. You understand the process. You understand we're trying to execute what we're trying to do. It's just your turn to execute. It's your turn to step up. I think businesses need to be the same way. You can't rely on, like, Brad's, like, irreplaceable. She just does everything well.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:16:18

If that's the case, that's just as bad as the owner being the only person. If one person, whether it's the owner or a key employee, everything has to go through. You're going to struggle. You need to have the process where the person behind Brad, if he leaves, decides he can't take this anymore, gets hurt, gets a stable, who knows that the next person can step up and make sure the organization keeps running the operations, keep running those three things. If you focus on those three things, your business will be successful. And what I call that is that you have a transferable business, which gives you an option that if a competitor comes in and makes you an offer, you could say, okay, my business is ready to be sold. Are they going to give me enough money to make me want to not run this anymore? And if they don't, you're like, no, I thank you for the offer, but I think I can do better on my own. And I know I can do better because I know what my business is worth.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:17:05

I know it's going to continue because I got the infrastructure in place and I can do better with my strategic plan than with your big check.

Brad Herda [: 00:17:13

I like that. I like those three things a lot. And the industry piece is the part that most people fail to understand. I know you and I, we do some things together. The industry comps are priceless. From an opportunity. When I show clients those numbers, they're like, really? That's all the gross margin that some of these places are making. And then I get into the question of, okay, yes, but where is your labor compared to their labor? And let's make sure that we're talking cost of goods sold to cost of goods sold and nothing.

Brad Herda [: 00:17:48

All those other accounting games. But let's get to the net number and see where you're at from a net number perspective. Let's see where your growth number is. And those two numbers are better than your industry. You're sitting in a great spot and most people won't take the time to go find that out.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:18:03

Correct. I think that's the key, is once you have that information, it's much easier to make decisions. Instead of being in your own world and saying, we're doing okay. I feel good about this, actually knowing that you're doing better. Industry. Or say, hey, there's a gap. It allows you now to step back and like, okay, instead of being upset about yourself, like, I look at it now, have an opportunity. There's an area where someone else, other people have already figured out how to do it better.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:18:28

The industry on average has figured out how to do it better. So it's doable. Someone's already figured it out. How do I replicate what they do? And then not only that, how do I not only get back to the average, what do I do to get past them? Cause you don't have to. I would never sell for the average. So you just make sure you find the opportunity and then you push yourself past that.

Brad Herda [: 00:18:45

Right. So with that vast knowledge that you have, and we spend a lot of time mostly talking with those in Gen X and boomers, what advice would you have to the younger generation on helping to set up their business for the future.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:19:03

I re rate those, those points I just mentioned, but I'd also.

Brad Herda [: 00:19:07

Uh huh. What else?

Greg DeSimone [: 00:19:08

Again, I'm. I'm gonna sound, I'm gonna sound like a boomer right now. I think that's okay.

Brad Herda [: 00:19:15

I do it all the time.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:19:17

The younger generation overvalues their experience, just like the, the older generation undervalues the skill sets that the younger, generous come in. I think the younger generation needs to really open up their mind and say, there are some things that I've done in the past. Scars mean something. Like, if you've had a scar, means you've cut yourself, you got hurt, you've experienced yourself, you've experienced, and you had to figure out how to get by that. No one, I don't know anyone who's been successful because they've made every single decision they've ever made from the day they were born to the day they retired correctly. The people that I know, they're successful fail, but what they're willing to do is recognize that they're failing, or they're recognizing they're just not performing to that level, and they're willing to make quick corrections. Like, when I was in corporate, I felt I was a pretty good leader and manager, and I was hired to be a technical person, but I thought my greater skill set was management. And I remember HR coming in and talked to me one day because my turnover was the lowest.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:20:23

My team was working the highest amount of overtime hours. And he said, how do you have your turnovers? Like, 20% of what everyone else is, but your team is working five times more hours than everyone and overtime. And I just basically, I give people responsibility. I base it on results. If you set, we set expectations. You meet your expectations, you got a lot of latitude to get your job done. And he said, then asked me, he's like, well, how did you get to that point? I go, I screwed up a lot. When I came out of college, everyone was the same as me.

Brad Herda [: 00:20:56

Yeah.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:20:56

When I looked at my first job in a public accounting firm, everyone was just like me. They all had accounting degrees. They all wanted to be a partner or CFO. Everyone was motivated. I went to my first job in industry, and I had people that were wanting to get ahead. I had people that were single, single moms. I had people that just want to do a good job and go home and have dinner with their family at 05:00. Meaning we had all different types of people.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:21:17

They all wanted. What I had to grapple with is just because they weren't like me, they still want to do a good job. They just didn't want to do a good job. They didn't see a good job as the way I did.

Brad Herda [: 00:21:28

They all.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:21:29

But they all wanted to be valued and they want to do a good job. And I just remember, like, I would try to do things to motivate the team and change direction on certain things and revamp certain processes. And there was many times, like, I'd be a week into like, well, they don't like this. I don't think that it's team. So I got to figure this out. And I quickly, because I said I didn't want to be working to night and I knew my team wouldn't work that late, so I had to figure out how to quickly adapt the processes and policies and how I managed different people with different skill sets so that I could leave at 05:00 as well. They could still leave at 05:00 but everything was getting done. So it was a lot of air of fixes where I made a lot of mistakes.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:22:12

There were little mistakes, some were bigger, but it doesn't matter. I fixed them as quick as I could. And within a few years I. The group was humming and all those scars helped me with each progressive opportunity I had.

Brad Herda [: 00:22:24

Right. And we've talked about that on a show before about the opportunity to fail. As you are going through your client transitions and things like that today, do you see that latitude of your older generations generation, folks that are exiting? Do you see less tolerance for imperfection as they are getting closer to exit than maybe when they were five or ten years ago, that they just aren't willing to accept that, hey, it's life and it's going to be okay. No one died. It's okay.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:23:02

No, I think that's the companies that cannot exit, whether it's through a family transition, because the business just can't support the transition because they didn't get the family ready or didn't create enough of an asset that's repeatable that they can actually sell it to someone else. It's all reliant on one person. What I see is the companies that struggle with that are very intolerant to change. They're very intolerant to any other perspective. The companies that did well let people make mistakes. They gave people attitude. And it doesn't mean that you have to go out and give everyone ultimate authority to do everything in the area. You do it in bite sized pieces, just like you don't let your, your two year old jump on a ten speed bike and say, hey, go have at it.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:23:49

And you'll figure out eventually your two.

Brad Herda [: 00:23:52

Year old's not making frozen pizza. Right. I mean, just not going to go do that.

Brad Herda [: 00:23:56

Right.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:23:57

So you, you keep expanding responsibilities. They show their ability to take it on. You keep expanding this sphere of, of responsibility and authority. No one says where you want to get to is where you can actually just go to Florida for four months, come back and the business is doing better than when you left Arizona.

Brad Herda [: 00:24:18

You don't like Arizona, Greg?

Greg DeSimone [: 00:24:20

Well, Arizona is cross country. Florida is a shorter flight. I hate the flight. The shorter flights, better, but I hate the cold, so I'm going warm.

Brad Herda [: 00:24:33

Yeah, there you are in Boston. Still there.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:24:38

I am in Boston for a while, but yeah, I think it's, yeah, you gotta, you gotta give the people that are close minded have less tolerance for changes. The other thing people is they retire in place where they change. But change is hard because you gotta work a little bit hard to train people. You gotta work a little hard to help be ready to clean up some messes and help people get back on track when they inevitably will fail. But if you put that time and eventually it pays off, where you go from. Like when I was working that company I was talking about a while ago, I started working 60, 70 hours a week. When I left that company, I was averaging 35 to 40. I had to like kind of sit around to get to my 40 hours so that people didn't think I was leaving early.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:25:22

But I didn't need to work 40 hours because everyone, everyone picked up the slacken. So what happens? People retire in place and they don't, so they don't put that extra effort in. Then they demand people to do better, that they should do better. They demand that they take more responsibility, demand that they don't make any mistakes, and then they take it back because they're intolerant of these mistakes and the business just stagnates and no one's in a better position when it's time to actually make a transition or transferred.

Brad Herda [: 00:25:53

Yeah, I didn't think about that. Retire in place. I see that from a couple prospects that I've been talking to and that's, I couldn't pinpoint the right terminology, but I like that retire in place is exactly what's going on. It's like you can have that conversation, oh yeah, that's great idea. Fantastic. But then there's no action. Well, then you, then you don't care. It's fine.

Brad Herda [: 00:26:15

Your choice, not mine. Your business, not mine.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:26:18

And it's worse when you, you see there's two different types of people that do that, the ones that are making a good living. I've seen people where they're netting like half a million, a million dollars a year through salaries and distributions, all that. If you retire in place there, you're probably still saving money. You're going to be okay. You're not going to maximize your return. You're not going to leave the business in a better position for the next generation if that's the case. But it's not catastrophic. There's people.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:26:44

The worst case when you see them, their company is not up to industry average. They're barely creating enough money to fund their own lifestyle, yet they're tired and they're not willing to do anything different to change that course in a business. Don't sell. It's those people.

Brad Herda [: 00:27:03

And it's not a threat either. It's just a fact.

Greg DeSimone [: 00:27:06

No, I'm not. Yeah, it is a fact. I mean, business, most businesses aren't sellable or transferable because you retire in place and you just accept the status quo. The market changes your business hasn't had and you're unaccepting of change. You're afraid of change and you get stuck there.

Brad Herda [: 00:27:26

So for those that are listening to the show, that are looking for that opportunity to gain some assistance or find somebody to reach out, and they like what you like, your approach, how do they find you, Greg? Where do they find you? How do we get in contact with you?

Greg DeSimone [: 00:27:41

Sure, you could always go through focal point and they'll find me. You can go through my email, greg, catapultadvisorygroup.com and you can come through my website which is catapultadvisorygroup.com which is a week or two away from being live. Okay, just for your context, I haven't worked with a website where I was launched a new firm six weeks ago, so we're in the process of getting the new website up.

Brad Herda [: 00:28:10

It's all good. Technology is always those fun things. So Greg, thank you so much for sharing your insights and those three key things for your trilogy because that is vitally important to work towards for that transferable opportunity. So thank you for taking. See you later. Thank you for listening to Blue Collar B's brought to you by vision for business solutions and professional business Coaching Inc. If you'd like to learn more on today's topic, just reach out to Steve Doyle or myself, Brad Hurda. Please like share rate and review this show as feedback is is the only way we can get better.

Brad Herda [: 00:28:43

Let's keep blue collar businesses strong for generations to come.