Crispy Like Toast: What Happens When Your Business Owns You with Mike Finger

Steve Doyle (: 00:00

Welcome back to BlueCaller BS Brand. How you doing today?

Brad Herda (: 00:04

I'm fantastic Mr. Stephen Doyle. is a wonderful day here. Spring is in the air. Golf is around the corner, except it's going to snow on Sunday, so looking forward to that.

Steve Doyle (: 00:12

well, you better get your golf in tomorrow. That's all I got to say. Get it in.

Brad Herda (: 00:18

It's gonna be well, there's a chance we're going to dinner tonight and we will have that conversation if we will Go out in the 50 mile an hour winds that we're expecting and seeing what happened So that's the

Steve Doyle (: 00:28

do it. Do it. Do it. Make sure make sure the golf balls extra light. Extra light. Just let the wind take it. I'd love to see that. Court a couple holes like that for me, please. Thanks. So who do we have on the show today, Brad?

Brad Herda (: 00:34

Yeah, there you go.

Brad Herda (: 00:40

Perfect. Okay, we'll take some pictures for you.

our guest today is Mike Finger. Unapologetically small business. Over 25 years, he has bought and sold multiple businesses. Building his first business was a rewarding challenge and, and captivated him to selling his first business. Mike is an amazing guy on LinkedIn that tells his story very cleanly and very clearly and very succinctly for everybody to understand. And the reason he's here today is so that our audience can understand that.

Having an option at the end is just as important as beginning the journey. So Mike, thank you so much for being on our show today.

Mike Finger (: 01:25

Gentlemen, a pleasure to be here. Thank you for the invite. What do they say at the end?

Brad Herda (: 01:28

They always say that when they start the show. I don't know what you guys say after the show. I don't know. We don't know because they leave.

Steve Doyle (: 01:30

when they start? Well, we don't know yet. We don't know yet. So before we get too much further into the show, Mike, which generation do you identify with?

Mike Finger (: 01:43

I am a Gen Xer, born in 69.

Steve Doyle (: 01:48

Awesome. Awesome. You'll hear me refer to Brad as a boomer, but he keeps telling us that he's not. He's a Gen Xer, but I'm no, no. I can. I am so so Mike, tell us how you got started in your journey.

Brad Herda (: 01:48

Perfect.

Brad Herda (: 01:55

I am 67 technically is that there's no way around it unless you can expand time somehow. then you're special.

Mike Finger (: 02:00

Hahaha

Mike Finger (: 02:10

boy, back, back in the mid nineties, my wife and I cut our dining room table in half to make two desks and started serving clients out of our living room. started, started a business. turns out I'm a bit of a growth junkie. 10 years on, I find myself with 50 full-time employees, wake up one morning, look in the mirror, see a crispy piece of toast, looking back and realize I gotta go do something else.

Steve Doyle (: 02:24

You

Steve Doyle (: 02:38

Mmm.

Mike Finger (: 02:39

And that's when I had my own personal moment of what do you mean I can't sell my business? Business broker after business broker hung up the phone and I found myself needing to recreate my business with a different perspective in mind. Five years later, was lucky enough to sell that business. It was a freaking life do over for me.

Steve Doyle (: 03:00

you

Mike Finger (: 03:06

I've got to do a number of things in the interim, including two turnarounds where I bought and sold. And it leads me to where I am today, which is I work with small business owners interested in prepping their business for sale because I lived it, I learned from it, and I love the space. there's...

there's a lot of bad information in this space. lot of information I think does a terrible disservice to small business owners. And so I do what I can to try to combat that garbage.

Steve Doyle (: 03:33

Yep. A lot.

Brad Herda (: 03:43

Well, and I will say that you're, you are out there speaking truth in your messaging, not all just the success wins in the pine, the sky and all the rhetoric and bullshit that many go out there and say, you can get 10 times your revenue in an industry that gets historically one times. you kidding? mean, cause you're right. There's a lot of bad information out there. And for our audience, I guess, what would you say are the

What was the biggest lesson you learned when you saw that piece of toast over that five year period? What was that opportunity?

Steve Doyle (: 04:17

Mm-hmm.

Mike Finger (: 04:21

yeah, I mean, it's you know, it's so funny. I I still feel it, guys. I still when I when I cast myself back to that space, I still feel the 80 pound sack of potatoes on my shoulders. I still feel the the stress and the and the wake up at 3 a.m. And again, as it relates to this space of exit.

Brad Herda (: 04:23

I know there's lot of them, but what-

Mike Finger (: 04:50

I think the biggest learn for me is how wrong someone who genuinely thought they were doing it right can be as it relates to this space. How easy it is to be misinformed and how we as owners need to take control of this topic.

Steve Doyle (: 05:03

Mmm.

Mike Finger (: 05:20

No one else is gonna do this for us. And that's not a surprise to us as owners, we're used to that. But for some reason we think that this is something that waits on the sideline until we're ready for it. And then just magically turns into success. And I don't know, not much in my experience as a business owner has worked out that way. And this is certainly not the case.

Steve Doyle (: 05:24

Right.

Brad Herda (: 05:45

So let me ask a question about financials, right? Most small business owners hate taxes, right? We hate them to the nth degree and we don't want to pay them. So our accountant does us this great favor of showing almost zero revenue for decades because we don't want to pay taxes. And then you wake up, you see your piece of toast and then you go, Hey, I want to go sell my, even though that might be the tax purpose, that may not be the reality of what's all going on. How do you,

Steve Doyle (: 05:53

it

Steve Doyle (: 06:02

Mm-hmm.

Brad Herda (: 06:14

What kind of message or how do you get those business owners that you work with to realize that income is good?

Mike Finger (: 06:23

Yeah, I mean, it's so funny because it's so simple to understand if you are looking at acquiring a business, right? You pull up that set of financials and the owner says, we reinvested all of our profits back into the business and it goes through the air and what the buyer hears is, we never made any money. And the truth of the matter is, what's on that bottom line

Steve Doyle (: 06:24

Yeah.

Steve Doyle (: 06:49

Mm-hmm.

Mike Finger (: 06:53

at the end of the year that actually makes it to your taxes, that's what your results are. It's not what you did, what you got in the first quarter. It's not what you, you know, certainly there's creative ways that accountants can help you defer taxes or there's ways that expenses can, can hit your, your taxes that perhaps qualify as an ad back when you're going through a recasting or something like that.

But the bottom line is if your business isn't making money. I've got three basic questions I push on owners. Because again, this is an entire industry defined by complication. Most of the people in this industry make their money because they have mastered the complexity. Attorneys, accountants, business brokers, all of these folks have a vested interest.

Steve Doyle (: 07:30

Mm-hmm.

Mike Finger (: 07:50

and having us as owners feel like this is a terribly complicated, sorcery-filled space. And it is, right? The transactions are complicated. There's a lot of checks, boxes to check the right way. But when it comes to sellability, three basic questions. Are your results desirable? Can a buyer duplicate your results? And can you document your results? You give me a yes to those three questions. We're now talking about a sellable business. You give me a no.

Steve Doyle (: 07:57

Right.

Mike Finger (: 08:20

to any one of those questions or a maybe or occasionally, now we've got some problems we've got to address. Brad, do your question explicitly.

Steve Doyle (: 08:25

Right.

Brad Herda (: 08:26

Yeah, yeah, but Mike no no Mike Mike that only happened one time. It's okay, but it only happened the one time It's fine Sally's no longer here. It happened the one time and Johnny took care of it. It's okay Mike

Mike Finger (: 08:31

That's right.

Mike Finger (: 08:36

That's That's right. Hey, no, no, you're not reading those taxes correctly. That loss each year, that's not what that actually means. Again, all of us as owners have had those years. We've had those situations occur. I'm not unrealistic about this, but the problem is that we are our own worst enemies when it comes to this space. Because the biggest risk to our profits

Steve Doyle (: 08:38

Yeah.

Mike Finger (: 09:05

That's us as owners, right? It's the, I'm gonna buy three more of those and put them in the closet, or I'm gonna do this or that. How about instead, we actually allow our business to create net worth for us. We allow it to create results that are attractive to us as owners and to a potential buyer. Sellability and ownability are the same.

Steve Doyle (: 09:27

Interesting. What I'm curious to know is that journey of kind of the for our audience, there's those people that are kind of like dabbling around at some point, I want to sell my business, you know, five to seven years out, maybe it's 10 years out. What do you say to those individuals to start getting mentally prepared for that transition?

Mike Finger (: 09:54

It's a great question. The first thing I tell them is to remember that exit almost always sneaks up on owners. It is a very rare situation where an owner says, I'm going to sell 10 years on this day, and they work their way through that process. What happens in the interim? Divorce, diagnosis, new opportunity. Hey, here's a different business I want to pursue.

Steve Doyle (: 10:01

Mm-hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 10:17

I don't know.

Mike Finger (: 10:20

but now I'm anchor locked to the one that I have. So that's the first thing I call out is that it's all well and good to have an exit plan. I'm a big advocate of being exit prepared, right? again, that's right. That's right. Let's own it forever or sell it tomorrow. Let's be able to do either one of those things. Because again, the dirty little secret of this whole topic area is that a business that's ready to sell is a

Steve Doyle (: 10:33

Mm. Yep. Yes.

Brad Herda (: 10:34

the option. Have the option.

Steve Doyle (: 10:41

Mm-hmm.

Mike Finger (: 10:49

fabulous business to own forever. And it's the reason I don't work on commission, because the truth is, is that I've worked with too many owners who come to me and say, I'm miserable. I want to sell my business. They say, well, we can't sell it until we change some of these things, till we get those three yeses. We start to change those things. Well, I don't want to sell the business. We're making money. I don't have to be there. I'm having fun. This thing's great. Why, why would I sell this? That's where we want to be. Is that place because

Steve Doyle (: 11:04

Yep.

Steve Doyle (: 11:10

I'm having fun now, yeah.

Brad Herda (: 11:10

I'm having fun!

Steve Doyle (: 11:15

Mm-hmm.

Mike Finger (: 11:18

Again, I've had those, I'm thinking of one client in particular, guy owned an auto shop, made significant changes to his business. He's a 10 hour a week guy at that point. A 10 hour a week owner suddenly gets that magical offer and turns it down. No, it's not enough. The magic offer calls back and raises the bid another 30%.

Steve Doyle (: 11:39

Mm-hmm. Wow.

Mike Finger (: 11:47

Now he sells his business, right? mean, those are the kind of opportunities that being ready offers. I don't want to that's right. That's right. And again, in the interim, my business is easier to manage. I can be more successful. It's more profitable. It doesn't take as much from me as I'm doing. That's the reality of the space. And again, as a guy who did it the hard way,

Steve Doyle (: 11:48

Yep.

Brad Herda (: 11:54

It presents the opportunity for sure, right?

Steve Doyle (: 11:56

Over.

Mike Finger (: 12:15

as a guy who got to that place of I got to get out of here and couldn't leave, that change, that five years was brutal because I was done. Right? was ready. man, it was brutal. Don't do that. If I had started a couple of years earlier, made some of those adjustments. Number one, I wouldn't have been nearly as burnt out as I was. And number two, my options at that point would have been through the

Brad Herda (: 12:26

You're mentally checked out.

Steve Doyle (: 12:28

Mm-hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 12:43

Right.

Brad Herda (: 12:43

And the things that you're referring to and you put in your post, aren't major, so it might be major, but in many cases, it's small incremental behavioral changes and habit changes and things that will add up over time that all of sudden you look back and you go, I just walked across the United States and you didn't know it because you're just, it's not like, we got to boil the ocean or we're going to, no, it's just.

Steve Doyle (: 13:06

Mm-hmm.

Brad Herda (: 13:12

small little things like having your account and make sure that you're not buying a stupid ass truck for $80,000 using all your cash because I can fully depreciate it this year and I don't need a truck to avoid $15,000 in taxes. Go spend $80,000 in cash. That's a bad idea.

Mike Finger (: 13:22

Right. Right. Right.

Mike Finger (: 13:29

That's a really bad idea. And the boiling ocean's a great picture because that's where you are if you wait. If you wait to the end, that's where you are. Alternatively, if you accelerate that process, now we're making incremental change. And we all know that over time, incremental change creates a huge amount of difference. I can do a simple example. I've got a fairly new client and

Steve Doyle (: 13:37

Mm-hmm.

Mike Finger (: 13:57

We go through our analysis and what becomes clear is there's an over-dependence of the business on him. And so what's the pattern we change? Hey Mike, I want you to start working from home Friday afternoon. You're take a half day and work from home. I'm not asking you to take it off, I just want you, well what's that gonna do? Well it's gonna mean you're not in the office to answer all the questions.

Steve Doyle (: 14:03

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mike Finger (: 14:21

It's gonna mean that we're gonna start to see where the weakness, right? These little pattern changes, instead of being there 12 hours a day, every day, now I'm creating a little space. I'm creating a little distance and we start to see that evolution take place. It's little things. And again, if I could stress anything to the owners listening, the biggest danger here is waiting.

Steve Doyle (: 14:34

Mm-hmm.

Mike Finger (: 14:44

That is what kills more deals than anything else is owners wait until they are ready to sell to get ready for sale.

Steve Doyle (: 14:53

Right. Well, what are

Brad Herda (: 14:54

Right. Because there's this mental gymnastics that have to go through that. And watching, even on the family business transition side, even though they're not truly, there will be an equity transition at some point, but just that ownership of operational transition inside the family business is still one of those, well, dad's not ready to leave yet. Dad's going to come in. Well, we can't go anywhere until dad, decide you want to be gone. And if either you're here,

or you're not here because your salary dictates you're here. So, but you don't want to be here. So let's figure out how we got to make that happen. And those challenges are always fun and exciting also.

Steve Doyle (: 15:25

Mm-hmm.

Mike Finger (: 15:35

Yeah, and it presupposes that we get to decide. I can't tell you how many experiences where I'm dealing with an owner and they're like, well, here's my plan and they need to start getting ready. And then they don't show up for my Zoom meeting. And I reach out to the contact number and I get a message back, Bill's in the hospital. We don't get to make these decisions a lot of the time. And so again,

Steve Doyle (: 15:41

Yeah.

Steve Doyle (: 16:00

Right.

Mike Finger (: 16:03

readiness is the idea. We're not talking about hyper preparation. We're not talking about I leave my emergency plan on my desk every night before I leave. That's not what this is. This is a place of realizing that we create true transferable value by creating an organization that can operate when we're not sitting in the chair.

Steve Doyle (: 16:06

Mm-hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 16:14

That's not what it is.

Brad Herda (: 16:16

All right.

Steve Doyle (: 16:26

Mm hmm.

Brad Herda (: 16:27

I find it ironic that we're sitting here in 2025, just four and a half years away from all the COVID stuff and all the big plans and all the things and all the stuff and all of that emergency plan, all that preparation, all be prepared for stuff just says all kind of just fluttered away over the course of time. And why do we need to be prepared for anything? Life is fine. It's kind of, it's weird that we had this major occurrence and disruption that

Mike Finger (: 16:50

Yeah.

Steve Doyle (: 16:51

you

Brad Herda (: 16:56

All of a sudden these owners are just, big deal. We're back, as usual.

Mike Finger (: 16:59

You're not suggesting we didn't learn anything, did you, Brad?

Brad Herda (: 17:02

I'm suggesting that we learn things, but it's on the shelf over in the corner. It's like going to a conference. I learned something at the conference, but it's going over there in the corner. And when it comes up, I'll try to remember. put it there.

Mike Finger (: 17:06

Yeah.

Mike Finger (: 17:14

That's right. The problem is that there's no advocate for this topic except the owner. If a piece of equipment breaks, there's 15 guys in your office. Every little topic in our world as owners has advocates, not this one. And this is the transaction.

Steve Doyle (: 17:14

Right.

Steve Doyle (: 17:22

Yep.

Steve Doyle (: 17:28

you

Steve Doyle (: 17:37

Yep.

Mike Finger (: 17:39

that tends to put a bigger check in the hands of business owners than do it successfully than anything else they'll ever do as owners. My plea to small business owners is spend a half an hour a month on this topic. Put a lunch in your calendar with yourself. This is your lunch date with your future self. Spend a half an hour listening to a podcast, reading an article, watching a YouTube video, reading a book.

Steve Doyle (: 17:58

Mm-hmm.

Mike Finger (: 18:09

And just watch what happens over time as you start to learn what sellability actually looks like, what buyers want, and watch your daily decisions change incrementally and watch your business improve. It's it's freaking magical as soon as we stop ignoring it.

Steve Doyle (: 18:28

Yeah. One of the things that I'm curious about because some of our younger audience, they're either thinking about starting a business or they have started a business and they're a couple of years in. Back to your first three questions. What would be one or two things from those three questions that those either potential business owners or very young business owners should be implementing in their business to get them to be sellable when

you know, versus versus those business owners that are very experienced, like, hey, I need to figure it all out now. So we get into that mindset of that pre planning phase.

Mike Finger (: 18:59

Yeah.

Brad Herda (: 19:10

It's so much easier when you start it than it is 30 years after you've been in it to go out, start putting accountability in place, you know.

Mike Finger (: 19:17

Absolutely. And I will say this is where I get in a little trouble with the truly dogmatic believers in this space. Because the answer I'm supposed to give you is start with the end in mind. I'm supposed to give you that do this all up front. And my problem is that my experience as a small business starter or buyer is that chaos rules. And so for me,

Steve Doyle (: 19:26

Mm-hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 19:30

Right.

Steve Doyle (: 19:43

Yes, it does.

Mike Finger (: 19:47

My advice is, first, we've got to get to sustainability. We've got to get to a place with our business where we're not worried about making the next payroll. And when we get to that place, then we start thinking about succession. Then we start thinking about sellability, because that water is calm enough for us to be con- And how do we do that? We start thinking about things like building systems, building a team. These things that you guys have talked about on this program,

Steve Doyle (: 19:50

Mm-hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 20:04

Mm-hmm.

Mike Finger (: 20:17

who knows how many times, right? We talk about those basic fundamentals. We talk about things like, you as the owner need to make money from this business. And that might sound like a really strange thing to say out loud, but owners understand why that's not all that strange, right? We got to start paying you a market rate salary. There's got to be some benefit. So we start looking at this entity.

Steve Doyle (: 20:18

Yep.

Brad Herda (: 20:18

Correct.

Steve Doyle (: 20:38

Mm-hmm.

Mike Finger (: 20:46

as something other than an appendage from our body, which is how we view it as an owner early on. But for me, it's that sustainability, then let's start looking seriously at what sellability looks like for business. Again, not because you wanna sell, but because you want a business that's easy to own that you could sell if you decided to.

Steve Doyle (: 20:53

Mm-hmm.

Brad Herda (: 21:10

Okay. you have any, right? Cause we talked about early on in the beginning of this program that there's a lot of misinformation out there. There's a lot of, we can say crap, we can say shit, we can say a lot of things, there's a lot of people out there trying to scare people into decision-making along the way instead of having meaningful conversations about reality.

Mike Finger (: 21:22

Crap? Can we say crap?

Steve Doyle (: 21:24

Y'all you can say, you can totally say crap.

Brad Herda (: 21:38

And I find you to be one of those guys that's really having a reality conversation, not a scary conversation. Do you have a book or two or a title or two or, or a resource that says, Hey, Mr. 33 year old business owner right now is just starting a family has no, couldn't even care less about what's there, but understands being prepared for opportunity because I believe the younger generations are far more.

Aware of when opportunity shows up to take advantage of them more so than our generation and the guy and the boomers in front of us Do you have any do you have any book recommendations or anything for those younger owners that are

Mike Finger (: 22:19

Sadly, don't, Brad. Here's the problem we have. I try to give as much credit as I can to professionals in the space. I don't think they're intentionally misleading small business owners. They're focusing on 2 percent truths. What do I mean by that?

We look at small businesses in the US and 98 % of the businesses in the US have less than 20 employees. professionals in this space, it's just, in fact, it's probably easier to sell a $5 million business than it is to sell a $500,000 business. so professionals in this space tend to speak to and teach to

and promote to the 2%. So you're going to see 1,000 articles about Google's last acquisition. You are going to see articles about private equity and venture capital and all of these things that will never touch the 98 % of us. They'll never touch us. And so the question is, most of the books are written to the 2%. Most of the articles are promoted to.

Steve Doyle (: 23:20

Steve Doyle (23:36.642)

Okay.

Mike Finger (: 23:40

It's...

Mike Finger (: 23:44

It's harsh out there. it's, I don't, I wish I had a, and it's gonna sound incredibly self-serving, say, well, follow me on LinkedIn. That ain't it, right? But there are resources.

Brad Herda (: 23:58

No, but there's pieces to it. So I wasn't sure if maybe if profit first or buy back your time or influencer or those types of things that would be, hey, here's the one thing that, you know, if you at least start with this, this will help you to get through that process, you know, in the the chunks of of areas of concern being prepared.

Mike Finger (: 24:05

those are fabulous tools.

Steve Doyle (: 24:18

Thank

Mike Finger (: 24:20

I mean, we could talk about dozens of those, right? From traction to e-myth to, right? I mean, there's so many systems or resources. And if we're talking in more general business operation, yeah, tons of resources. And then I think many of them do speak to small business owners. When it comes to this exit space, it's a bit of a desert.

Steve Doyle (: 24:21

Thank

Steve Doyle (: 24:30

Mm-hmm.

Brad Herda (: 24:47

yes, I would agree. I would agree. for sure. That is not one that is out there being talked about, which is why we're grateful that you decided to come on today and have that conversation. So as we have our, our audience listening, how do people find you, Mike? Where do they, where do they hook up with you? Where do they find your information? Get all your goodness.

Steve Doyle (: 24:48

Mm-hmm.

Mike Finger (: 25:09

I'm most active on LinkedIn, as has been mentioned, or you can find me at exitoasis.com. I've got a blog there, content there, always open to a conversation with owners.

Brad Herda (: 25:24

Okay. Steve, you want to take us in the bite your tongue?

Steve Doyle (: 25:26

Ooh, so we've got a new segment, Mike, titled bite your tongue. Has there ever been so that the whole context of this is, if you're able and willing to, has there ever been a time when you have said something where you would have been like, I might have been better off biting my tongue.

Brad Herda (: 25:48

personally, professionally, business owner, not a business owner.

Mike Finger (: 25:50

man, what kind of time do we have? And I'm so glad my wife's not listening to this conversation. Here's the interesting thing about that question is that as my career has gone on, as I've done more coaching, I've started to realize and I...

Steve Doyle (: 25:51

You

Just pick one.

Brad Herda (: 25:54

Just pick one. Okay, so that means there's a list.

Mike Finger (: 26:18

fingers crossed I'm getting better at realizing that I provide more value by asking questions and listening than I do by actually trying to answer questions. Because especially when I'm dealing with owners, I don't know their industries, don't know the specifics of their business as well as they do. Early in my career, I can't count the number of times.

Steve Doyle (: 26:25

Mm-hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 26:28

Mm-hmm.

Mike Finger (: 26:46

It's a really interesting question. I don't know if I have a specific bite your tongue moment. There's so much, there's so many chew marks on this tongue of mine that it.

Brad Herda (: 26:58

That's fair. That's a fair response. That's all good. That is all good. Mike, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and knowledge with us today. I really do appreciate it. People go out. He's got some of the best content on LinkedIn that I've seen in this category. Just follow him. Just pick up his stories. Listen to his stories. I guarantee you as you read through his LinkedIn, read through his stories, you will find you in those stories in some way, or form.

Steve Doyle (: 26:59

Fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough.

Brad Herda (: 27:27

You do a really good job with that, Mike, and we really appreciate you being here today.

Mike Finger (: 27:31

Thank you, enjoyed it.

Steve Doyle (: 27:32

Yes, thank you, Mike.

Brad Herda (: 27:33

Alright, have a great day.