Episode 172
How to Tell If You’ve Hired the Wrong “Tool”
A $6 soldering iron that catches fire the first time you use it versus a snap-on tool that still works perfectly after 35 years the difference between cheap tools and quality equipment mirrors the challenge many blue-collar businesses face with workforce compensation and expectations.
The conversation starts with tool brand loyalty Milwaukee versus DeWalt versus Ryobi - and evolves into a deeper question about value. When you buy snap-on tools, you know exactly what you're getting. When you hire employees, do you have the same clarity about what you're paying for and what you expect to receive?
The challenge isn't just about finding good people or paying competitive wages. It's about understanding how to break down compensation into meaningful components and setting clear, measurable expectations. Most organizations fail because they interview for hard skills but fire people for soft skill failures.
The discussion reveals a fundamental problem: organizations set expectations but don't capture data to measure against them. Without proper tracking systems, foremen end up covering for problem employees rather than addressing real issues. This creates cycles where owners think they're getting poor value while employees feel unfairly judged.
The solution involves restructuring compensation into three components: production value (what you pay to get work done), loyalty value (what you pay to retain someone), and wisdom value (experience that prevents costly mistakes). This framework enables meaningful conversations about pay differences between workers with different experience levels.
Highlights:
- Tool brand loyalty mirrors employee expectations - you get what you clearly define and measure.
- Most firing happens due to soft skills, but most hiring focuses only on hard skills.
- Organizations set expectations but fail to capture data proving those expectations are met.
- Compensation should break into three components: production, loyalty, and wisdom value.
- Clear expectation setting requires both communication and measurement systems.
- Time tracking prevents wage theft and removes emotional decision-making from management.
Ready to stop wondering if you're getting what you pay for from your workforce? Start thinking like a tool buyer define exactly what you need, measure what you get, and structure compensation to reflect real value.
Subscribe to Blue Collar BS for more honest conversations about compensation, expectations, and building accountability in blue-collar businesses. Share this episode with any business owner struggling to balance fair wages with performance expectations.
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Transcript
Hey everyone, welcome back to this episode of Blue Collar BS Podcast. I am your cohost Brad along with my cohost. Yes, sir. There he is. He knows how to say things and do things. So how is that? How's Detroit, sir?
Steve Doyle (:Steve.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's why I'm here. It's doing well. It's a great. It's a great day. Great weather. Couldn't ask for any great fall weather. It's great. It's just.
Brad Herda (:fall weather at the end of August for this Labor Day weekend. Isn't it great? Isn't it
Steve Doyle (:Yep, I love it. I actually I love it. I'm in heaven right now with weather. So
Brad Herda (:because it's 58 degrees and shorts. That's why I'm in this sweatshirt because it's 50 60 was it was my watch. 66 degrees with wind and cloud and it's like, OK, it's windows are open, but I got a sweatshirt on.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah.
Yeah. I do like the sweatshirt you got on, though.
Brad Herda (:after being after being a hundred degrees for like nine weeks in a row. Well, yeah, it's representing, you know, it's a it's an international brand, right? So so pre show, you know, we were talking a little bit about how there is that separation of there's there's just separation of people, right? There's the Milwaukee tool folks that will bleed red all day long. There's the DeWalt folks. There are the Nikita folks. There are the
Steve Doyle (:Right?
Yeah? Yeah?
Steve Doyle (:Yep.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:All right, OBE folks, there's, and then you mentioned the Harbor Freight folks. I remember growing up, I remember growing up, went to Seven Mile Fair as a kid, right? So starting to work.
Steve Doyle (:Yep. We're afraid folks, there's the harbor freight folks. Yep, going for broke.
Steve Doyle (:Seven mile fare. Now, for those listening in Detroit, we're not talking eight mile.
Brad Herda (:That's not, or no, we're talking a different Sarah. So seven mile here in Wisconsin, southeastern Wisconsin, seven mile fares down. It's an annual. was during the summer. It was all outdoors, fleet market style thing every weekend. Yeah. My right after I got my driver's license and stuff and started to build up my things, um, work on my bikes, my cars, different stuff that I had, my buddy and I, went down there, right? Took mom and dad's car, go down to seven mile fare. I'm like, we're gonna get some tools.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Steve Doyle (:Thank
Brad Herda (:We're get some tools. We're gonna fill the toolboxes. It's gonna be great So
Steve Doyle (:Yeah, Yeah. Go get some tools. So so what'd get?
Steve Doyle (:you
Brad Herda (:So I needed to get, didn't have a soldering iron and some other things and we're doing some, we're redoing some electrical.
Steve Doyle (:Wait, how old were you in your plane with soldering irons? OK, all right.
Brad Herda (:16.
All right, so we're doing some wiring harnesses and some different stuff. So I'm like, okay, just need a quick.
Steve Doyle (:Did you get a light bulb wrench? It was metric.
Brad Herda (:Light bulb wrench was that left-handed or right-handed or was that metric? Okay. Yeah, I've got I got the metric millimeter one not the metric not the metric centimeter one
Steve Doyle (:Okay. Got it.
Brad Herda (:I got the left-handed metric millimeters wrench for the light bulbs, right? So that was good. Right. So I'm like, okay, I don't want to get right. So get that nice little sovereign iron, sorry, gun that's got the trigger and right. Instant temp from Buffalo tools. Nothing but the best, but Buffalo tools.
Steve Doyle (:Okay, good. For the lightbulbs, good.
Steve Doyle (:The eye... buffo.
Brad Herda (:Plugged it in doing our first thing whole fucking thing just went up and My case is melting. Starting to fight. Starting its own internal fire. Like, oh, this is horrible. This is absolutely horrible. But it was $6 well spent. Apparently I got to use it one time. Plug it in once and it was destroyed.
Steve Doyle (:You
Steve Doyle (:Mm hmm. I mean, you did get a deal.
Brad Herda (:I did. I did. It was like, okay, great. Here it is. Oh yeah. That won't be making that mistake. That no, from that point on it's like, okay, you get what you pay for.
Steve Doyle (:but do you?
Brad Herda (:Well, do you? That's a great question, Steve. Do you get what you pay for from an employment perspective in today's world, right? Are you getting what you want in a, in the different generations from the, can't find good people scenario. So with everything that's happened over the last five years, do you believe the manufacturing construction trades world is getting the value?
Steve Doyle (:Mmm.
Steve Doyle (:Steve Doyle (04:18.76)
Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:out of what they're paying for. And I can hear everybody on the other side are tens of listeners right now yelling, yelling at the at the radio. Fuck no. Hell no. These kids don't want to work. But anyhow, I'm gonna ask you the question, not our audience.
Steve Doyle (:Cringing.
Steve Doyle (:Nope. well, let's see. I am. I'm mixed on this one. It. And you're right. You know, my first inclination was to give you also the hell no.
Brad Herda (:Okay, so you're, depends, just like any other wishy washy person. Perfect. Like a millennial, just wishy washy.
Steve Doyle (:But in reality it does depend and some people would argue. Well yeah, I am because I clearly stated I knew this is what I wanted. And I was like, OK. That's nice. So you clearly stated all those nice hard skills that you said you wanted, but yet when people start failing, it's all because of the soft skills. I know we're jumping around here a little a little bit, but. Yep, but let's let's just go back to the main question that you just asked. Are we getting what we paid for?
Brad Herda (:It's okay, it's all good.
Steve Doyle (:And the reason I say it depends is most people don't understand how to interview for the soft skills. And that is why you actually are firing people is because of their inherent inability with the soft skills. Most of the time, most of the time.
Brad Herda (:Hmm. You got to show up. You can't be a safety liability. You can't do shit work.
Steve Doyle (:I mean, some people tolerate shit work. I mean, I would say...
Brad Herda (:Yeah, I'm blessed to have clients that aren't willing to do that. So I guess
Steve Doyle (:Well, you are. Yeah. But I mean, look at look at the workers in the government. I had to get that zinger in there. I had to get that zinger in there. But at the end of the day, if we're not clear on the expectations for what needs to be set for the employees, both in the technical skills, those hard skills, and we're not clear with those soft skills.
Brad Herda (:Ooh, this isn't a political show, Steve.
Steve Doyle (:There's always going to be the assumption, well, I didn't get what I paid for because the person that showed up that we paid for, you know, we paid for the $10, we paid for the $6 soldering iron, but we got the 50 cent show.
Steve Doyle (:Right? You could have paid for the $20 soldering iron and got a $20 soldering iron, but instead you went.
Brad Herda (:then I couldn't have gotten all the other stuff to go with it for the other $14 I was spending that day.
Steve Doyle (:That's correct. So again,
You know what? You know, people do put on a good facade in an interview, but it really comes down to. How when you're when you're in that interview? Question period, are you asking the right questions to weed out? Are we getting the real deal or are we just getting some nice packaging?
Steve Doyle (:You
Steve Doyle (:You
Where are you going to go with this bread?
Brad Herda (:Wow, I'm glad you had the ING on the end of that. I am so grateful you had the ING on the back. my gosh, I wasn't sure where you were going to go with this.
Steve Doyle (:You
Steve Doyle (:you
Brad Herda (:Oh my God. I'm gonna have to this sweatshirt off. It's hot in here.
Steve Doyle (:It's hot. It's getting hot in here now.
Brad Herda (:Yeah, and I think those expectations are really important and too often organizations set the expectation and they don't capture the data in order to do so. They put expectations out there, but they don't track the data to be able to say, okay, if showing up on time, if you're a construction crew to showing up on time to be at the safety meeting every day is important to you and your GC or whoever you're working for.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Right.
Brad Herda (:Okay, cool. Is it do you need to be there 100 % of the time for everybody? Does the foreman need to be there 100 % of the time, but the crew members can be there 15 minutes late because nothing else is going on. I mean, what what are you trying to do there? And then how do you how are you clocking in and clocking out? Are you using technology to your friend? Are you using a system to get people to clock in and out? Or are you trusting the foreman to do things and now you're getting
I don't want to say that things are being that people are stealing from you, but there's a high risk that people are stealing from you. If you don't have a time management system in place of some sort, if they're hourly employees, it's dangerous.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Correct.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.
Brad Herda (:unless you are at the site all the time as the owner to go look at things and when people are showing up and what's going on, you're not doing that most likely. So if they're showing up and they got a great relationship with the foreman and the foreman knows that if Johnny is gonna get fired because he's not showing up on time, because that's your pet peeve and now the foreman's got to work extra, he's not gonna tell you that Johnny's showing up late. Because he doesn't want to be shorthanded. He'd much rather deal with it 15 minutes late than have nobody.
but you're pissed off because he's showing up 15 minutes late. Well, figure out how to figure out how to solve your pissed offness to make sure your field guy knows what's going on and can be successful.
Steve Doyle (:is again, you'd.
Steve Doyle (:So this is all around expectations and setting them and making them known to people and then actually measuring against those expectations.
Brad Herda (:Right. mean, well, it all started out with talking tools of the various different products. Right. So people go to Milwaukee, people go to Walt, people go to Makita, Ryobi, whatever, for all their various different reasons, because they know what they're going to get with that product. If I go and get my snap-on tools, I've got a snap-on rotating screwdriver set that was state of the art back in the day. I bought that when I worked at Cranborough auto parts.
Steve Doyle (:Hmm? Hmm?
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Back in the day, was that 1940, 1950?
Brad Herda (:So I was at Kramer Auto Parts, so that would have been probably bought off a snap-on truck in 19 Starts with a 19 not a 20 Let's see here Kramer schools 85 88 So Probably 1989 1990 All right, it was a snap-on old screwdriver set ratchet style
Steve Doyle (:02.
1902.
Steve Doyle (:Man Boomer, getting, taking a while.
Steve Doyle (:Okay, nice.
Mm-hmm.
Still works.
Brad Herda (:with all the bits, all the things, still have the case, still have all the bits, still have all the things, right? Probably spent 70 bucks for it back in, man, probably not, probably $60 for it back in 1990, which was like a small fortune for, you're gonna do what?
Steve Doyle (:Yeah.
Steve Doyle (:Correct. Right, you're gonna.
Doot doot doot
Brad Herda (:But I, but I it's there. It works. I've used it tens of thousands of times and it's, all good.
Steve Doyle (:right?
Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:probably a great investment from a tool perspective.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm. I mean, I like mine.
Brad Herda (:Whereas if I go get the...
It's similar but different. Yes. cause technology has changed. Manufacturing has changed over the years. it's created different tools, different opportunities, different things, right? Nice little red case, all the stuff.
Steve Doyle (:Similar but different.
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Brad Herda (:But I know what I was getting when I bought Snap-on. I knew what I was getting when you bought, you knew what you were getting when you bought Craftsman. Right? You knew what you were getting when you were buying those things. You knew what you were getting when you were buying Husky right now at Home Depot or whatever Lowe's brand is or other things, right? They're similar but different, right?
Steve Doyle (:Yeah, still got several of those screwdrivers around.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Brad Herda (:And you can tell and feel the difference between the product and things. No different than with people. You can tell and feel the difference when people are on your job site as to what you're getting. So are you going to overpay or are you going to try to pay what's there? Where are you going to live in fear or are you going to live in abundance and know that the right people are going to come to you?
Steve Doyle (:Yep.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Right. That's a great question to ponder.
Brad Herda (:It is, it's like Grey Foo Pon.
Steve Doyle (:That's right. So what is it you're willing to, what is the value for the person and what they're doing? Are you willing to spend? And how are you ensuring that you are getting your value, but in ultimately how you're communicating your expectations of that value.
Brad Herda (:and double checking the results of those values with data. If a 19 year old kid comes in and produces the results of a 42 year old that has all the same experience, same knowledge, same wisdom, same everything, why should their wages be $15, $18 difference per hour?
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm. Right.
Steve Doyle (:Other than the factor of, it's time in the seat and it's not fair to Earl that he's been doing this for 40 years. you know, Carl over there did it and, you know, we're paying him the same wage. After, you know, with, you know, a lot less experience on paper.
Brad Herda (:Correct.
Brad Herda (:So if you were to take an hourly wage and break it down into production value, right? Because I have a production value. Somebody's worth something to me from a production value, my daily worth, my daily things. Cool, that's worth something.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Correct.
Yep.
Brad Herda (:Loyalty to the organization is worth something.
Steve Doyle (:Okay. Yep.
Brad Herda (:and your years of experience and wisdom, right? I could be someplace for 18 years and not know shit. And many of you have, many of those staff members who've been there 18 years and all they know is the one thing you go, how the hell did you not know? How did you not know that this was what we did over there in that corner? Well, I've never been over that corner. don't, right.
Steve Doyle (:Is the one thing
Steve Doyle (:I'd never picked my head up out of my cubicle to go look.
Brad Herda (:Right. And then you have others that have been there 18 years that have been that feel like they've been there for 100 because they know all the things, all the stuff. So there's the wisdom value. So my challenge to our listeners is to understand and start thinking about how do I break up that wage into those things and start segmenting activities and research and things to support that.
Steve Doyle (:Yep.
Steve Doyle (:you
Steve Doyle (:Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:It's a good challenge. You know that's I just heard a listener ask that. What you talking about? What you talking about?
Brad Herda (:I do that with my clients all the time and they go, what the fuck you talking about? I'm like, well, think about it. Right. Exactly. What the fuck you talking about, Willis?
Brad Herda (:Um, but yes, that, that is to me, that's one of the areas of how do I get to an hourly wage? It's what do I pay to do the work? What am I willing to pay to keep you here from a loyalty perspective? And what wisdom and value do you bring to my organization to prevent things from happening errors, different things, managing people, et cetera? Okay, cool. And, and those components make up that base rate or that the wage compensation piece of it.
Steve Doyle (:Hmm?
Brad Herda (:add your benefits, add your things for total comp, et cetera. But those three areas to me are very important.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Yep. Right.
Brad Herda (:Cause now I can have a meaningful conversation. Now I can, now I can differentiate that $18 an hour between Wally and, and Erin because of certain factors.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Brad Herda (:And it's not just I like Wally and I don't like Aaron, so screw it.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm. You can actually have the meaningful conversation and a factual conversation.
Brad Herda (:and try to take the emotion out of it, right? Because too often we get emotional and we don't worry about it or we send it, well, some people do, or we send it to HR and HR is trying to do the right things to mitigate risk and do different, you know, make sure that.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:You get emotional?
Steve Doyle (:you
Steve Doyle (:Which business do you work in? Where HR is trying to do the right things.
Brad Herda (:Excuse me.
Brad Herda (:For all our HR folks that are listening out there, that was Steve Doyle. Steven Doyle on LinkedIn. Send all the hate mail to him. Steven Doyle Jr. You can find his LinkedIn piece in the show notes.
Steve Doyle (:Yes, please do.
Steve Doyle (:you
Steve Doyle (:Hey, you know, you gotta take your jibs every now and then.
Brad Herda (:Well, when you have good HR folks again, I guess I we get good. Yes finding people that are in alignment are really important
Steve Doyle (:Correct. Correct. Correct.
Brad Herda (:Right. It's, it's the misalignment that is the issue in most organizations, not that they're bad people.
Steve Doyle (:Mm hmm. So burning question, what brand of tool?
Brad Herda (:All right, go ahead.
Brad Herda (:As going on did you see the aerial photos of the lines trying to get in the Burning Man out in the desert?
Steve Doyle (:What?
Brad Herda (:What you didn't see those out on the social media? Yeah. I wasn't sure if they were real. could have been AI. I don't know.
Steve Doyle (:No, it's not my thing. No, social media is not my thing.
Steve Doyle (:I have no idea what you're talking about.
Brad Herda (:I'm not a Burning Man fan, I just saw some new snippets that came out. Some concert where they burn a wood statue.
Steve Doyle (:I don't even know what that is.
OK, good. Good for those people. so yeah, as you try to derail me tool manufacturing preference of choice there young man.
Brad Herda (:Continue on.
Brad Herda (:preference of choice or the ones upon which I own and have everything for?
Steve Doyle (:Yes is the question. Yes is the question.
Brad Herda (:are two different questions.
Brad Herda (:I am a Ryobi kind of I have Ryobi because I used to have Milwaukee tools when I was younger because I did a lot more work around the house a lot more things than those then the then the batteries went out and it's like well this is no good battery I'm like well here's the the homeowner version at Ryobi so I've gone down that Ryobi path at the home at the Home Depot stores
Steve Doyle (:Steve Doyle (19:34.029)
Yep.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Got it. At the, got it. Okay. All right.
Brad Herda (:Right? So we've got lots of the Ryobi stuff. We've got the, we've got the stick broom works great in the basement on our carpets and our rugs and the stairs in the basement area after getting done. I've got the portable, what one gallon, what dry vac. I mean, all the little itty bitty gadgets that are out there for all the universal battery stuff. I'm like, it is getting rid of everything corded essentially.
Steve Doyle (:Okay.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Yep.
Brad Herda (:Other than I have an impact hammer that's corded because impact drill hammer drill because it's just.
Steve Doyle (:Well, yeah. Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:it works so much better to get in the concrete and things.
Steve Doyle (:Correct. Yeah, you don't burn through all those batteries. Yeah, there are some times sometimes you do need that corded. You do need that corded bit so. Yeah, nice. I'm. I am a Milwaukee person all the way. Packouts drills. Die grinders. Dremels.
Brad Herda (:Right.
Brad Herda (:and yours.
Brad Herda (:Dremel's not Milwaukee tool, that's a trade name.
Steve Doyle (:Well, not a drug, but a Milwaukee style. Of that, you know I have. I have I actually have 10 of these. Around my house.
I have the Milwaukee heated jacket. So yeah, you would say I did. I do have some Bosch tools because those things, those suckers just don't break. They just keep going. And then I do have my hammer drill is a Metabo corded Metabo hammer drill. So I do have you have that. Everything else, is Milwaukee.
Brad Herda (:Nice.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah, and I bought into all the packouts. Even our mobile podcast unit is put into Milwaukee packouts.
Brad Herda (:You actually did that when you got back?
Steve Doyle (:Yeah, they're all in packouts.
Brad Herda (:That's hilarious. Are you coming in September for your invite for our show? For our award show?
Steve Doyle (:well, you know, I could. haven't. I did see that.
Brad Herda (:We are nominated again for podcast of the year within the small business owners community, which at the time of this show, we should know whether or not we've received that event, received that award. Um, although we're recording this show on August 29th, I believe the show goes live in early October. So, um, by then, hopefully we are defending, defending, let's see, let's bring it out here. Defending.
Steve Doyle (:Thank
Yep.
Steve Doyle (:defending
Steve Doyle (:Ooh, funding. Small business.
Brad Herda (:Small Business Owner of the Year or Podcast of the Year.
Steve Doyle (:well back to back. mean back to back is nice. Active back to back championships are nice.
Brad Herda (:I don't want to know. Yes. OK. Just want to make sure you were talking about packaging earlier.
Steve Doyle (:Wow.
Wow. All right. It's that kind of Friday. A little feisty. Yeah. It's a holiday weekend. It's nice, cool, crisp weather. Let's go. So.
Brad Herda (:It is that kind of It's a weekend Friday, man. There's that much.
Brad Herda (:So, so yes, what are what you pay for and what you get depends on what you're doing. How, what are you're setting for expectations? What are you doing to set wages? How are you tracking the data? How are you communicating those expectations? Have you transferred the authority and the responsibility? Lots of other things go along with this, but
Steve Doyle (:Mm
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:Truly sit down and think about as this is airing in October and you're going through wage reviews and you're going through annual reviews. Truly think about how you're going to redo your compensation and and maybe. Put some meat behind it other than just well, you know CPI says it's this well. Just because CPI said this doesn't mean that's what should happen. Do some studies in your area. Find out understand truly if you are in the.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah.
Brad Herda (:95th percentile or if you're in the 21st percentile.
Steve Doyle (:Right?
Brad Herda (:Because if you're in the 95th percentile and you have 60th percentile workers, that's a you problem, not a worker problem.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm. That is correct. Good topic today, Brad. Sometimes you do all right.
Brad Herda (:Why, thank you, sir. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for showing up, Steve.
Steve Doyle (:Anytime.
Brad Herda (:Alright, till our next episode, ladies, gentlemen, boys and girls, you've been enjoying another great episode of the Blue Power BS podcast with.
Steve Doyle (:Steve. Yeah. Yeah, well, later.
Brad Herda (:and Brad. Thank you very much. Way to go. Way to pay attention,
Brad Herda (:We'll talk soon. Yeah.
