Episode 174
Shorty Shorts, Tank Tops, and Customer Service
When is a job really finished? This episode explores the gray area between completed work and customer satisfaction through Steve's personal experience as both contractor and homeowner in a landscaping project gone sideways.
The conversation centers around a classic scenario: contractor completes work per original scope, homeowner calls four months later wanting additional work done. Steve built a retaining wall but explicitly excluded soil reclamation from his scope now the homeowner wants that dirt moved and expects it as part of the original job.
This real-world example illustrates the challenging decisions contractors face daily. Do you stick to your contract terms and risk damaging relationships, or absorb additional costs to maintain customer satisfaction? The answer depends entirely on the business value of that relationship.
Steve's situation becomes more complex because he's both the contractor and lives with the homeowner creating the ultimate conflict between business principles and domestic harmony. His insistence on contract terms versus relationship management mirrors struggles many small contractors face with demanding customers.
The episode emphasizes practical decision making over rigid adherence to contracts. When dealing with unreasonable customers who provide no referral value, standing firm makes sense. But when relationships and future opportunities are at stake, strategic flexibility often proves more profitable than being technically correct.
Highlights:
- Clear scope documentation prevents most disputes but doesn't eliminate them
- Calculate scope creep decisions based on referral value and future opportunity cost
- Legal battles cost more than most small disputed amounts
- Sometimes absorbing extra costs preserves valuable business relationships
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Transcript
Everyone welcome back to this episode of blue collar BS. I am your cohost Brad along with my award winning cohost. There you go. He still remembers his name folks. He's not the best sidekick in the industry for nothing.
Steve Doyle (:Steve.
I do remember my name, we're good.
Steve Doyle (:All right, Robin. I am Batman. Yep, yep, yep.
Brad Herda (:Good, good to hear. So what's going on in Michigan this weekend, this holiday weekend as we're recording?
Steve Doyle (:holiday weekend. it is, you know, just a lot of a lot of work around the house. My lot of work. I have to if you really want to know what type of work I got to do. It's I have a bay window that is no longer square. Yep. And so I have to dig a footing and pour concrete and maybe do
Brad Herda (:Work around the house.
Brad Herda (:for a bay window?
Steve Doyle (:Yeah. Because it's hung out like it, it's cantilevered. So I and that's how it's how it's floating in the house. It's probably like a quarter inch to half inch out. And so the windows won't lock. Yeah. So when it.
Brad Herda (:Could you use a car jack and a two by four?
Steve Doyle (:I can, but I have to put a footing in. Because underneath that is just dirt, so I have nothing I could use a jack on. So I have to. No, there's it's too big of a window. There's too much weight to lift. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so that's that's one thing. There's some other landscaping stuff.
Brad Herda (:put down a sheet of plywood.
Brad Herda (:and get to Carjack.
Steve Doyle (:you know, I built the retaining wall or the little retention, you know, pseudo re retaining wall, architectural design, whatever you want to call it, non-structural, to hold the weeds in and the grass out. And, so I told my, my other half that you can, I'll do that, but I'm not dealing with the flower beds that's on you.
Brad Herda (:guys.
Brad Herda (:Perfect.
Steve Doyle (:And that was at the beginning of the summer, so nothing got backfilled in. Because that was on the gardening union. And I'm not in the gardening union. Nope, nope, I am only in the I will build the things you move the dirt things.
Brad Herda (:So.
Brad Herda (:No, but you're in the backfilling union now.
Brad Herda (:See, I think that's an incomplete job. There's a great topic. So is that job incomplete? Was the scope incomplete because the gardening was nearly planted?
Steve Doyle (:all right. So then fine. Let's talk about scope for this. So the scope for this project was I want you to build this like, okay. And I said, this is what it does not include. And I was crystal clear of what was not included in the scope was not included. It was not included.
Brad Herda (:Okay.
Brad Herda (:So backfilling the hole was not included.
Steve Doyle (:Soil reclamation was not included explicitly said this is not included.
Brad Herda (:Sounds like there's a change order coming up because there will be some soil reclamation, which will be included.
Steve Doyle (:Everything else is done. Yeah, there is a there is the desire for a change order to happen to have the excavation company come back and move the dirt.
Brad Herda (:Right. So hold up your left hand and your right hand and show us the excavation company.
Steve Doyle (:Be good.
Yeah. Exactly. These guys are gonna have to go move the dirt when it was those. Those 10 guys are gonna have to move the dirt after we Yeah, yeah.
Brad Herda (:Those 10 guys are going to move the dirt this weekend.
Brad Herda (:It would have much easier to do the soil reclamation after you dug the hole instead of letting it sit there all summer.
Steve Doyle (:Well, you know, was explicitly stated in the scope of work. It is excluded and it was agreed upon.
Brad Herda (:So just because it was agreed upon, was it the right thing to do?
Steve Doyle (:Yes, absolutely. Yes, 100%. 100%.
Brad Herda (:Are you sure?
Okay, and how's the couch?
Steve Doyle (:perfect. It is perfect.
Brad Herda (:Just wanna make sure that little extra was probably worthwhile.
Steve Doyle (:I have been, mean, the couch is amazing to sleep on.
Brad Herda (:You made him
Steve Doyle (:Plenty of room. Nobody bothers me. It's great.
you
Brad Herda (:You may want to consider scope creep. may have made life easier at the time instead of having to go back and do it now.
Steve Doyle (:no, I'm going to enjoy watching the newest member of the excavation company moving dirt.
Brad Herda (:you know that's not gonna happen.
Steve Doyle (:Well, you know, again, along with expectations, expectations were set. Can't help it if you didn't like what you signed up for.
Brad Herda (:your wife a millennial.
Steve Doyle (:No, she's a stubborn Gen X or just like me. She's she's anyways, we won't get into that. Anyways, Anyways,
Brad Herda (:just like you, really? Okay.
Brad Herda (:So yes, had you done the original scope, instead of being to the letter of the law, the intent of the law might have been better suited for you. You'd be in a much better position and I am confident flowers would have been planted.
Steve Doyle (:ehhhh
Steve Doyle (:Not on that side of the house. That is not a traveled side of the house other than for the lawnmower.
Brad Herda (:the flower you said there was flower beds by that wall now.
Steve Doyle (:Well, there is a Rosebush growing up behind.
I forget what type of Bush these things are.
But you know, it's like a like a little people have them in front of their their their house bushes things. I don't know the name. They're just things I don't have to mow or trim. They grow their green their green all year round.
Brad Herda (:They're just things. Okay.
Steve Doyle (:So, no.
Brad Herda (:universe.
Steve Doyle (:I forget the name. But I'll remember the name once once the show is over. I'm looking at them out my window out this window. They're in the front of her.
Brad Herda (:Perfect.
Brad Herda (:Awesome. So what's the topic du jour today, sir?
Steve Doyle (:I thought we were going to talk about scope and scope creep, you know.
We could.
Brad Herda (:Okay, so how do we, so you gave a prime example of this is what we're gonna do, this is what's gonna happen, and here we are, end of log. When was the work completed? When was the original, quote unquote, scope of work completed?
Steve Doyle (:The homeowner decides after the work is done.
When was the work completed?
Steve Doyle (:May.
Brad Herda (:So it's May, June, July. So four months later, the contractor receives a call saying the job's not complete.
Steve Doyle (:Yep.
Steve Doyle (:Mmm.
I wouldn't say job not complete. Job complete, but could you come back and do this? So change order.
Brad Herda (:Are you sure it's coming in with a change order premise? Is that your viewpoint or the homeowners viewpoint?
Steve Doyle (:that's my viewpoint. Now the homeowner viewpoint. Is we've gone back and forth very clearly stated. This is what was agreed upon from the original scope of work. Yes, but now I don't like that.
Brad Herda (:So, well, but this happens all the time, right? This happens all the time. It just so happens that this, the contractor and homeowner happen to be relatives.
Steve Doyle (:Correct. I don't like that. I don't like that.
Steve Doyle (:you
Brad Herda (:But that is a very common scenario, right? Where all of a it's like, okay, cool, we did it, it's great. Well, let's assume, let's
Steve Doyle (:Yep.
Steve Doyle (:Everybody's happy it was signed off on
Brad Herda (:Paid in full, lien waiver given.
Steve Doyle (:Yep.
Brad Herda (:So paid in full, lien waiver given. And if we're using that scenario, then we get into a very difficult situation of is this particular homeowner a good referral source for this contractor?
Steve Doyle (:Ooh, hmm. You know. This homeowner doesn't like to lend out this the word of this contractor out too often. Yep.
Brad Herda (:Again, that's because they're related, but in general, right? Let's think about you as the contractor and let's just pretend right now that you're not related or living with or sleeping with the homeowner that you're doing the work for. Okay? So let's just assume that you're not sleeping with the homeowner, okay?
Steve Doyle (:Hahahaha
Right?
Steve Doyle (:Wow, that's all right. We're going to go there with this show. Okay. It's a great show.
Brad Herda (:Let's build that premise first if we're going to talk about this scope creep scenario, right? So you provide a scope of work. You satisfy the homeowner.
Steve Doyle (:Yep.
Steve Doyle (:Okay. You're the one that went there. You're the one that went there.
Brad Herda (:Maybe, maybe you've, maybe you provided the right scope of work. I'm not sure, but anyhow, you agreed to a scope of work. The homeowner agreed that the work was done. Homeowner gave, created payment. You provided lien waiver. You're out. Homeowner calls back for four months later. Homeowner calls back and says, Hey, I don't like what you did.
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Steve Doyle (:Yep.
Steve Doyle (:Yep. Audi's spaghetti.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:So if that homeowner, so this becomes, this is a real thing. Cause I have clients where this comes up, well, we did this job, blah, blah. I said, okay, great. set expectations, do those things. And it seems like you, like, you know, the blue collar BS contractor over there in Michigan, apparently did the right things to set expectations and, go through and put contract expectations in place and, do all, all that. So congratulations to you for being a good show steward and setting expectations and following up.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:Now that the home now the expectations seem to be not congruent. Is the homeowner a good referral source and you said no.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:Right? So the opportunity for the additional dollars for the time to go back over and reclaim the dirt and put it back in the hole from another job is slim to none.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:Is that fair?
Steve Doyle (:Could be.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:could be. No shit it could be. We need to draw some conclusions here and make some decisions there since you're the contractor.
Steve Doyle (:Could be. Could be. Could be fine. We can draw. Let's just let's just let's just draw those conclusions.
Brad Herda (:So are there referral opportunities from this homeowner or not to make dollars off another job or not?
Steve Doyle (:Technically, yes.
Brad Herda (:Technically, but
Steve Doyle (:Technically, yes.
doesn't like, won't do it because that would involve sending the contractor elsewhere other than, hey, come over here and do this job now. Why don't you do this job?
Brad Herda (:Again, this we made the assumption that this contractor is not property or owned by the homeowner.
Steve Doyle (:Yes, that's right.
Brad Herda (:They are two independent resources.
Steve Doyle (:Wow, okay, so now we're property of the homeowner. it, okay. All right, so, all right. Yes, yes.
Brad Herda (:Well, you won't play, you won't follow along here, Steve. How hard.
Are there referral opportunities from this homeowner or not? Okay, so now you have to make a decision based off those referral opportunities. Can I recover the vast majority or all of this work to support this homeowner to continue to have positive referrals and relationships?
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Brad Herda (:Or you could truly go through your change order process. Rules are rules and guidelines. And this is what we're going to do. And this is how we conduct business and have the homeowner pissed at you for the change order. And it's going to be extra dollars. So again, we're drawing the line that you are not sleeping with our owned by or part of this homeowner contingency.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Correct.
Steve Doyle (:Draw the line, yep, Yep, okay, good, yep.
Brad Herda (:So how would you recommend to somebody to weigh those options? Because it's a real thing.
Steve Doyle (:Right, so,
Brad Herda (:Think about the contract, the concrete guy that might be putting in a driveway and, hey, you know what? I pulled out my forms. I'm not back filling next to that. I'm not putting in new dirt next to there and different things.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah, I'm not doing soil reclamation on that. The short and skinny of it is is while we can quote unquote meet our customer expectations, if we came back and we backfilled said, yeah, OK, fine, I'll have one of my people come out there. It'll take us a few hours. We'll put all the will do the work. To do the soil reclamation, no problem.
I then what that ultimately is doing is it's going from meeting expectations which were, you know, expectations were met. Yep, you did the thing. They called and asked you now you went from meeting them to more than just exceeding expectations.
Brad Herda (:Right. But you could use the teen worker from episode one 58 to be the reclamation expert.
Steve Doyle (:Correct. You don't have to be like, we don't have I don't have to be the one I could use somebody else to go do that. Right. And that's, that's the point I need, I need to make it happen. How I make it happen. Totally up to me to figure that out to reduce overall costs and minimize minimize a financial impact that it has an immediate financial
Brad Herda (:unless you're flirting with that homeowner and you want to go right then maybe you do show up and maybe you do show up in your, you know, tank top and shorty shorts and boots.
Steve Doyle (:I thought we weren't going there.
Steve Doyle (:You have not been on a site, have you?
Steve Doyle (:I mean, yeah, well, I did. Funny story. Funny story. So I, it was a few years ago, we actually had a tree trimming company come out to our house. And I came home, trees are all over like, branches are down everywhere. And I see this one guy walking through the yard and I'm like, something ain't right.
And as I got closer, started to realize, I was like, wow, that shirt is pretty tight. Then the owner of the truck, the owner of the company hops out and came and talked to me. And she came walking over and all of a sudden I hear the guys just laughing and pointing fingers at the one guy that's, know, something just ain't right. And I can understand,
You know, the workers they did, most of them spoke Spanish so I could understand what they were saying. And I started laughing too, and the owner she stopped and she looks at me and I was like she's then she recognized that I could understand what they were saying. She's like, yep, if you don't show up to work wearing the appropriate clothes, you have to wear my shirt.
So the tank top was very snug. Let's put it that way. But
Brad Herda (:So, so Jorge, who's probably a, an XL is wearing a shmedium.
Steve Doyle (:medium was putting it nice. This was an extra small tank top. it was, and it wasn't, you know, it wasn't like one of those loose fitting tank tops. She had on a form fit. It was more spandex tank top with their logo across the chest.
She's very particular. If you don't want to be if you you show up with the right branded clothes. And you don't wear the branded clothes, you're going to wear my tank top.
Steve Doyle (:You can't go home. You're not going home. You're showing up on the site in my clothes. I will get in.
Brad Herda (:Bold move, Cotton.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah, well, that's the type of owner she was. I was like, hell yeah. So, you know, I guess you could show up in shorty shorts if you really wanted to, but.
Brad Herda (:Okay.
Steve Doyle (:Anyways, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, she's also the same person that well, I'll leave that for I'll leave that for later.
Brad Herda (:So anyhow, to your fact of solving your contractor problem. So are you going to leverage, are you going to subcontract out the backfilling to one of your team members or partners, or are you going to go and do the work yourself?
Steve Doyle (:Yeah.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah, I am. I am. I am. I'm going to hand this person the shovel and I'm going to watch.
Brad Herda (:Okay, so.
Brad Herda (:Okay. All right. Episode 158. If you want to hear insights into who this is, that's going to be hand working on the shovel. Maybe
Steve Doyle (:no, no, definitely not that. no, no, gosh, no, no, that ain't happening. no, I'm handing it. No.
Brad Herda (:No, not that, not that, not that episode, not that girl.
It should.
You're not going to give it to the homeowner.
Steve Doyle (:I am. Yes, I am.
Brad Herda (:No, no, no, that's not no that's a bad plan. Mr. Contractor. Because there's a reason why.
Steve Doyle (:Well, that that homeowners part of the team.
Brad Herda (:Hmm, again, for the scenario, not
Steve Doyle (:we're using this scenario not okay. Yeah, but we would definitely be having another employee come and take care of that. So or another vendor.
Brad Herda (:All right. And if, and if there was no referral opportunity to recover slight dollars from this job, how would you, how would you propose?
Steve Doyle (:Future potential. Future potential with the same homeowner.
Brad Herda (:But if there were no, but if there were no, if you knew there was no potential cause he had burnt, cause he burnt the relationship. They're all pissed off. Why the hell didn't you do this to begin with? Yada, yada, yada. Cause you're going have that potential is that same side scenario. And right now again, calling every week. Why is this not done? Why is this not done? Even though you've done all the right things, you could go to a court of law. You're going to probably be fine. Nothing's going to happen, but you're finally tired of all the phone calls, all the nagging, all the complaining.
Steve Doyle (:No future potential.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah
Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Brad Herda (:you right are you going to go do it or are you going to not do it?
Steve Doyle (:Well, let's just break it down in dollars and cents, right? It's going to take four hours. My bill rates 150. $600. I'm out half days worth of work. One employee, $600. Is the headache of dealing with this person worth the $600?
If you say yes and you're going to keep dealing with the headache for the 600 bucks, by all means, don't do it. But if the headache, if the money and the headache, you don't want to deal with the headache and that money, then just just go do it. Just go take care of it.
Four hours, it's over with.
Brad Herda (:Call your doctor.
Steve Doyle (:Done. Yep. Yep.
Steve Doyle (:Take care of it, just take care of it. Right, you could say, you could, you know, go fight the legal battle. You're gonna spend way more, way more. Regardless if you know you're right, you're gonna win. You still are tying up all your legal fees and you'll say, that's covered under insurance. Guess what? Your premium's going up.
Okay, is it gonna go up by more than 600 bucks? Hell yes it is.
Steve Doyle (:So, and I'm using that number just as a round number. You put in your own labor rates and all of that kind of stuff, figure that out. But at the end of the day, I mean, it's not even gonna take four hours. It probably would take an hour. You got drive time, drive back, whatever else. And then you'd be like, well, what about lost productivity? Okay, us talking about it is costing my, rather than just going and showing up and doing it.
Brad Herda (:Right. I had a, I had a VP one time or super busy at Bucyrus doing a bunch of outsourcing and VP of our supply chain. She came down and said, Hey, we're all the overtime invoices that I need to approve from our suppliers that have been working so diligently to get us.
Steve Doyle (:Right? So all of those things factor in.
Brad Herda (:She's like, well, why not? said, because I can either have them work on the products or I can have the guy that's supposed to be getting us quotes and supporting and making sure all the guys are doing their work, do all the other things so that they're not doing the work to get us our part that we're laid on because we didn't give them the material. And the $375 that you're going to be approving, we just wasted in this conversation. I'm like, but.
how then we're paying too much. Like, are you sure? Because I don't have to have the conversation. The parts just show up. They do the work. They get them here. They know that we're going to. Yeah, and all goes away and it's all fine. Like, oh, that's not how we work and then they were automotive. was automotive background like that's not how we do it. Yeah, but we're not that our machines are.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:They send us the bill, we're done.
Brad Herda (:$22, $25 million out the door. We're not watching pennies here through hundreds of thousands of components. talking.
Steve Doyle (:in it. Right.
Brad Herda (:We're talking each week is millions of dollars of cashflow opportunities that we're missing. So I can either have them watch over all the overtime stuff and not work on the weekends and then bitching complain about it. Or they could just do the one invoice when they're done and send it to us and we just pay it.
Steve Doyle (:Mm-hmm.
Steve Doyle (:Right.
Brad Herda (:So, all right, Mr. Doyle, thank you for that scope story with, with your homeowner.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah.
Brad Herda (:When the shovel hits you upside the head, make sure that you call 911 or have your daughter around so you can call 911 because this show.
Steve Doyle (:She'll probably just roll. I'll just be rolled over into the. Footing into the footing I'm digging.
Brad Herda (:into the hole.
Awesome. So what you're saying is this has a possibility for solo show.
Steve Doyle (:You know afterwards, yeah, probably.
Brad Herda (:She she yeah, this could be this could this could be the last episode for Mr. Doyle that we record if he gives her the shovel.
Steve Doyle (:I'll give her the shovel for sure. definitely am. Definitely am still defiant. Still defiant till the last drop.
Brad Herda (:All right, so if you'd like to be a co-host on the show, please message me on LinkedIn. I might be looking for another co-host. I'm not sure yet. We'll find out.
Steve Doyle (:Hahaha!
Steve Doyle (:Hahaha
that's funny. That's funny.
Brad Herda (:All right, well, you enjoy your dirt reclamation project.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah, yeah, you enjoy your weekend too.
Brad Herda (:and satisfying the homeowner.
Steve Doyle (:Yeah. All right, later. Yeah, you too. Yeah.
Brad Herda (:Have a great weekend.
