Skilled Trades Don’t Recruit Themselves - Joe McClaran Shows You How

Steve Doyle (: 00:00

Welcome back to the show blue color BS everyone. How you doing today Brad?

Brad Herda (: 00:05

I am fantastic Mr. Stephen Doyle and how are you? I see you brought your energy today finally. Good to see that. Good to

Steve Doyle (: 00:10

I did bring the energy today. Just somebody had to the switch. Somebody noticed, so the switch was flipped. So how are things going over there in the greater Milwaukee area?

Brad Herda (: 00:17

Good to see, good to see.

Brad Herda (: 00:24

this weekend is first robotics competition locally. So, me being the idiot thinking that everything, you know, things remain the same. went downtown to the arena. That's always been at for the last decade plus, and it's not there. They moved it. And then they, and they also moved the Thursday was practice Friday was comp set. No, today was practice. So it's like, how really? So what I got to go see some old friends and some mentors and some folks I've haven't seen in a while and spend some time there shot a little video.

Steve Doyle (: 00:36

Brad Herda (00:53.664)

had a mentor do some stuff that posted on LinkedIn. So it was all in all was a good day. And now we're here. Now we're here to talk about more fun skill trade things.

Steve Doyle (: 00:57

Well, that's it.

Steve Doyle (: 01:03

Awesome, who do we have on the show today?

Brad Herda (: 01:05

Today we have our guest, Joel McLaren. He is a skilled trades advocate and a talent acquisition manager at Comfort Systems USA Schaffner. If I'm reading that correctly, he does all the recruiting and social media to attract and retain higher talented individuals to help them be successful. His background is a dynamic one, food and Bev money. Now recruiting all these things. The guy's got a wealth of knowledge and we are happy to have him here. Joe, thank you so much for being here.

Joe McClaran (: 01:35

Thanks for having me. Wealth and Knowledge is kind of saying it nicely. It's more like Trivial Pursuit Knowledge where some of it is useful, but most of it's not.

Steve Doyle (: 01:44

that's...

Brad Herda (: 01:45

Not unless you get your little pies inside the little thing. Then it's important.

Steve Doyle (: 01:48

man. It is important. So, Joe, before we get going too much further here, which generation do you identify with?

Joe McClaran (: 01:57

I am a millennial.

Brad Herda (: 02:00

Just like Steve.

Steve Doyle (: 02:00

Excellent. Okay, boomer. You go down that road. You did flip the switch today. So Joe, tell our audience more about your journey. How did it start and how you got to where you are now?

Brad Herda (: 02:06

Yep, we did. We did. Flip the switch.

Joe McClaran (: 02:19

Yeah, so it's a tangled journey of different career choices that did not work out perfectly, but it got me to where I am today, so I'm okay. In college, I went to Tennessee Tech University for business management and human resources. I kind of fell in love with recruiting there. Got out of school and found out that the market at that time didn't care what my degree was in, had to have experience.

did some mortgage collections. We could go on for hours about the fun stories with that. Got food service, medical collections, some other food service, got some home security. And then I finally stepped away from that and said, I only am going after recruiting jobs. It's the only thing I wanna do, I'm going for it. So I was given an opportunity by an awesome lady, my last job that...

Steve Doyle (: 02:53

Mm-hmm.

Brad Herda (: 02:53

No, no.

Joe McClaran (: 03:16

set me up to get to where I am today. So now I'm at Comfort Systems USA Schaffner and I am in love with the skilled trades and the construction industry. What we do is just fricking cool.

Brad Herda (: 03:26

Why? What? What? What? What? Flip that switch for you, right? mean, being that you had the food and Bev background, and you had some other things going on, what flip that switch that the skilled trades was that much cooler than some of the other things you had experienced?

Joe McClaran (: 03:42

All that stuff is really boring. Anybody could find call center job, you could talk on the phone, do whatever. And I didn't know anything when I came in here. I had no idea. It's like construction is building stuff, got it. That was the extent of my knowledge. But during my interview process, my now boss took me to Neyland Stadium, University of Tennessee's campus, where we're doing work, and was able to walk the job site and talk to some of the people in the field.

Steve Doyle (: 04:05

Mm-hmm.

Joe McClaran (: 04:12

Of course I didn't sell it because I'm still in like protect myself, like I'm not sold on the job yet mode. But in reality I was like, yeah.

Steve Doyle (: 04:17

Hey.

Brad Herda (: 04:18

I'm being a real cool cat going on this thing as you're gawking over everything that's happening around you.

Joe McClaran (: 04:23

Yeah, yeah, I was like, I didn't want to tell him. I was like, that sealed the deal. It's like, is real. This is the stuff that the company does. Like, I want to get in on this. Yep, my first day they gave me the corsage is beautiful.

Steve Doyle (: 04:24

Thank

Brad Herda (: 04:32

Yes, I'll go to prom with you.

Steve Doyle (: 04:34

me.

Steve Doyle (: 04:39

That's funny. Way to go, Brad.

Steve Doyle (: 04:50

That was...

Brad Herda (: 04:51

That's, I mean, really, that's kind of...

Steve Doyle (: 04:54

That's, it's funny because that's the reality of what just happened. That's, you know.

Brad Herda (: 05:01

So have you leveraged that in your process now to recruit and bring folks to the job sites doing the things or are you all virtual social zoom non-personal type recruiting? How have you made a switch or change to attract the 26 and younger crowd into your organization?

Joe McClaran (: 05:20

We don't use much automation. We don't use video interviews. This industry is very face-to-face personal interactions. And if we don't instill that right out the gate, then in my eyes, we've lost touch with what we really are. So everything is in person, face-to-face. I think the biggest thing for the industry is to do

Steve Doyle (: 05:23

Mm-hmm.

Joe McClaran (: 05:48

everything you can recruiting, whether that's social media, whether that's visiting schools, getting in front of teachers, and especially parents, so that parents understand that this is not a dead-end career. This is not for stupid people. You have to be smart to be successful in construction, period, end of report. So if you can't do fractional math, or what we call tape measure math, if you can't do it, you're not gonna be successful.

Steve Doyle (: 06:08

Mm-hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 06:16

Mm-hmm.

Joe McClaran (: 06:19

But that's okay, because we'll also teach you. So leveraging what we offer as far as our apprenticeship program, the guaranteed employment, the steady growth of the company, there's a lot of great opportunities there. Where we see tech industry, people are getting laid off in the hundreds of thousands a year. When's the last time you've seen a mass layoff in construction that wasn't just temp or temporary staffing? You don't see it. It just doesn't happen.

Steve Doyle (: 06:45

You don't. You don't. Mm-hmm.

Brad Herda (: 06:49

Nope, you do not. There's a degree of certainty there over and over and over again, as long as the cost of capital is relevant enough to continue with the projects that are there, right? That's the downside of it. that's kind of how I think that's how we got into this situation, right? When in 2001, 2002, in that little recession that was there, the boomers were old enough to leave and young enough to come back.

And then we forgot about all these folks for the next 20 years. And now here we are today.

Steve Doyle (: 07:23

Mm-hmm.

Joe McClaran (: 07:24

Yeah, and I attribute a lot of it to the education system. And when I was in high school, there was a shop class, but it still had that negative connotation behind it that it's for stupid kids. Well, of course you're in high school, you're just gonna go with the crowd and believe whatever. But then as you get older, you look back, it's like, no, those are amazing skills to have. Even just basic carpentry or plumbing or electrical.

just basic level stuff, sets you up so much better in your life. And I hear a lot of these folks out here, know, they might be a plumber, but they can do carpentry work, they can do tile work, they can do framing. You can do lots of other things just because of their experience in the trades. So not only do you have a long stable career, now you're not paying thousands of dollars for somebody to come fix your home or do repairs. And then,

It's frustrating sometimes because it, you know, like I say, it is looked down on, but the opportunity outside the, on your tools, you don't have to be on your tools your whole career. You can work your way up to Foreman. You can work your way to project manager, estimating BIM.

Brad Herda (: 08:34

Correct.

Steve Doyle (: 08:40

Mm-hmm.

Brad Herda (: 08:41

Estimating is huge, right? If some of these younger individuals that can get the field experience understand that how it all works and come back in and change the estimating world, that is a massive gap that exists because go find a good estimator that's under the age of 48.

Joe McClaran (: 09:03

Yeah, you're gonna struggle to find that kind of fit. Yeah.

Brad Herda (: 09:04

Let's see.

Brad Herda (: 09:08

Right. So what is the right? You've been in this space, you're attracting and retaining younger talent. What are what's something that is failed that you would recommend not to do to bring younger talent into an organization? What have you tried and failed at? That just was this is stupid. We shouldn't do this. Don't do this again.

Joe McClaran (: 09:33

I can't think of anything that was just, we're never gonna do this again. I feel like if you go into it like that, you're shutting a door on a potential opportunity in the future. I will say what does tend to hurt the industry, especially in commercial, is the scale of it, the complexity of it, the amount of people on the job, the heat, the cold. It's one thing we could tell you in an interview, hey, when it's hot, it's hot.

Brad Herda (: 09:44

Okay, there.

Joe McClaran (: 10:02

it's cold, it's cold. Until you're out there in 110 degrees in the sun, in a trench, you don't know. So we see a lot of attrition just within that first six months of employment, because they're hitting one of those peaks. So I think being transparent and clear about what this work really looks like is important. And I think

Brad Herda (: 10:03

you

Steve Doyle (: 10:06

Yeah, it's a different high.

Mm-hmm.

Joe McClaran (: 10:29

I think we've shifted in trying to put more emphasis on that on the front end, because we want to make sure that we set clear expectations.

Steve Doyle (: 10:40

Mm hmm. Question for you around that. Is that a trend that you're seeing like the six like a six month attrition like there is fallout within the six months? Or are you seeing some other trends with the workforce coming in today?

Joe McClaran (: 11:00

So as far as that six month timeframe, I started chopping up our retention in three month increments up to two years and found that within those first six months was the highest by far. They make it past that, they tend to stay two or more years. Within that first about a year, maybe a year and a half timeframe.

Steve Doyle (: 11:03

Mm-hmm.

Joe McClaran (: 11:26

I see a lot of people leaving for 25 cents, 50 cents on the hour, which money pays the bills, makes the world go round. It does, I get it. But with all the apprenticeship and the free classes and the free training and the free tools that we provide to the job sites, then they're sacrificing something there.

Steve Doyle (: 11:38

Mm-hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 11:52

Mm-hmm.

Interesting.

Brad Herda (: 11:55

So how are you creating the culture to keep them to stay and not go for the 25 cents?

Steve Doyle (: 12:00

Mm-hmm.

Joe McClaran (: 12:02

We have to treat them the way that...

I feel like there's a lot of disrespect between office and field for a lot of companies I've heard. Yeah. That's putting it pretty nicely. Usually the field is saying the office is worthless, lazy, they don't do shit. And the office think, well, they don't know nothing. They're stupid. They don't know what we do. Well, we need each other. We have to have open lines of communication.

Brad Herda (: 12:14

You think?

Steve Doyle (: 12:15

You think?

Joe McClaran (: 12:38

We have to be there to support them. And just like I tell a lot of these kids coming in for their orientation days is, work for you. Without you, they don't need me. I'm gone. They need you. I work for you. If there's ever anything you need, you can call us. We will drop everything we're doing to take care of you. And on the flip side, when they're coming in,

Steve Doyle (: 12:40

Mm-hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 12:49

Mm-hmm.

Brad Herda (: 13:03

Can you get the flip cup stand at the job site for us?

Steve Doyle (: 13:07

Have you had that request yet?

Joe McClaran (: 13:12

No, not yet. No, there's no foosball tables out there. No flip cup. Maybe an adult Jenga here or there, those big ones. Bust your toes open. Yeah. Maybe one of those. But you gotta provide for them. You gotta give them the tools to be successful up front. So as a company, we provide all their PPE except for boots and pants. We give them a starter tool set. We pay for medical insurance for the employee. They have the free apprenticeship.

Brad Herda (: 13:20

Okay.

Steve Doyle (: 13:37

like this.

Joe McClaran (: 13:42

It's four years, it's a grind, I get that. It's just like college, it's accredited with the Department of Labor. It's an NCCER program. So it's legitimate. It's a program that, I don't care where you move in the United States, they can pull your NCCER number, you're gonna get a job. Because you can prove without a shadow of a doubt, you know your stuff.

Steve Doyle (: 13:58

Mm-hmm.

Brad Herda (: 14:07

Do they understand that at all? is it so or is it such a narrow? I'm worried about right now that I'm not concerned about 10 years from now, as they go through the apprenticeship program. Are they aware of the magnitude or how are you creating the awareness of the magnitude of that? Of that opportunity?

Joe McClaran (: 14:31

No, I think we hit and miss on the people sometimes. Whether that be an interview process, maybe we didn't explain something, maybe there's something we didn't catch that they said or a certain attitude that they show.

Brad Herda (: 14:36

Okay.

Steve Doyle (: 14:48

Mm-hmm.

Joe McClaran (: 14:49

Yeah, that's tough.

Brad Herda (: 14:53

And that's okay, right? It's part of the growth journey. It's part of all the things. It's part of the generations moving forward, right? And I guess my other question I would have around that is, you know, with these younger individuals coming in and seeing these benefits in education, the opportunity, do you have, do you have resentment from some of your older staff members that may not have received that same level of benefit or treatment or activity along the way? there a divide that's been created? And if there is,

Steve Doyle (: 14:54

Right here.

Joe McClaran (: 14:54

Yeah.

Steve Doyle (: 15:14

Okay.

Brad Herda (: 15:22

How are you managing it? If there isn't, how did you allow it not to happen?

Joe McClaran (: 15:26

Yeah, there is somewhat of a divide. We are very clear with our employees and we are very fortunate for the type of people that we do have, but they do go into it with a coaching and training mindset. So they may not be as resentful on the school. I think where we come up with snags is pay is just based on inflation, cost of living. We are having to offer brand new green people

Brad Herda (: 15:47

Okay.

Joe McClaran (: 15:55

more money than they started out with. And maybe that person is now, you know, 15 bucks an hour behind this more experienced person, but maybe they don't see the trend of the cost of living and the other factors that go into that starting pay. So we do have some frustration with that. A lot of times we just have to have a candid conversation with them, you know, explain why.

Steve Doyle (: 15:59

yeah. Yep.

Steve Doyle (: 16:21

Mm-hmm.

Joe McClaran (: 16:23

this green person's making what they're making. And we haven't lost anybody because of it, but we do have to have tough conversations.

Steve Doyle (: 16:25

Right.

Brad Herda (: 16:27

Yeah, and it's good.

Steve Doyle (: 16:31

But the fact is that you're having them. You're having those conversations and you're hearing what the employees are saying so that there's trust. You're building trust with the employees for retention, which is actually very commendable.

Brad Herda (: 16:32

Yeah, hit.

Joe McClaran (: 16:45

Yeah, we have to listen, especially as these next generations are coming into the field. They have a different mindset of work. They want to be heard. They want opportunity. They want to be taken care of. So if we lay that groundwork now and we have been for a few years, that is only going to set us up for more success as this next generation comes in, because we're going to be used to those conversations.

Steve Doyle (: 17:10

Yeah, absolutely.

Brad Herda (: 17:14

Have you started planning yet for Gen Alpha, you know, that 12 year old and younger? you have you started thinking about that shift yet?

Joe McClaran (: 17:23

No.

Joe McClaran (: 17:29

Not enough, honestly. I do go to some middle schools around the Knoxville area, try to get in front of some of the younger groups. And I think it's more of a, like, I take a different approach with them. I make a presentation that is all just the really, really, really cool stuff that we do. Just the coolest things I can find and put it up there in front of a mom talking. Whereas the older kids, the high school kids, they wanna hear about

Steve Doyle (: 17:36

Mm-hmm.

Joe McClaran (: 17:58

the money, they want to hear about the opportunity, where's the room for growth. So I have to take a different approach. But I need three more of me to really tackle it the way it needs to be tackled.

Steve Doyle (: 18:07

Yeah.

Right, right. What would you say to those high school students that are truly looking at the trades? Like when you're having those talks, like what is, for our audience, that they're not getting out in front of kids because they might have some apprehension. What do you actually communicate to those kids that get them like, hey, I wanna come see what you guys have to offer?

Joe McClaran (: 18:38

Yeah, we do focus a lot on the training because of the certified apprenticeship program. And I use it in twofold. It's like one, we are gonna make sure that you are a skilled tradesman. You are going to know your stuff. But on the kick side is say, now, if this is an opportunity that you really are looking forward to to get into trades, what do your parents think? What did your parents tell you? Have you talked to them about it?

Steve Doyle (: 18:52

Is it?

Steve Doyle (: 19:03

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Joe McClaran (: 19:07

And a lot of times I hear they want me to go to school. And instead of being down on it like, well, yeah, know, school is good. yeah. Now I say, that's great. We have a free school. You don't have to pay to go to trade school. Don't go in a debt for four-year university. It's accredited. We can verify it. If the parents want you to go to school and you want to go into the trades, here's where those two avenues meet. And here's how we can bridge that.

Steve Doyle (: 19:10

Mm-hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 19:17

Yeah.

Steve Doyle (: 19:36

That's fantastic that you guys actually have an accredited program that students can actually go through and prove to their parents, yeah, I'm going to school and I'm getting paid while doing it.

Joe McClaran (: 19:49

Yep. Yep. And even better, the class is not taught by, you know, the high school football coach that has to teach a class for his contract or his job. It's not any of those. All of our classes are taught by project managers, estimators, and foremen. People that have been in the field, they know the trade and they know how to teach it. So NCCR has its own curriculum and that's awesome. It's good. It's great.

Steve Doyle (: 19:58

Right.

Joe McClaran (: 20:19

great information, but when it's taught by our people, they can throw in those extra nuggets that they've learned or here's a different way that we do this that we've found more effective. So it helps. Yeah, it rounds them out perfectly. It's amazing.

Steve Doyle (: 20:25

huh.

Brad Herda (: 20:28

Right. Personalize it.

Steve Doyle (: 20:30

Right.

Steve Doyle (: 20:34

That's great. That's great. The other question that I had is more around, you know, that that experienced workforce and because some of the people coming, the younger people coming in, there's the stigma that they don't like to work and they have an attitude around, you know, well, I'm here. I need to be the foreman today on the job site.

Brad Herda (: 20:35

Very, very cool.

Steve Doyle (: 20:59

type scenario with that type of mentality with the younger generation. Have you ever seen that type of mindset with the younger generation? But then also the follow-up with that is how do the experienced workforces handle the younger generation that kind of has that, I would say false sense of where their place is when they come in and start work.

Joe McClaran (: 21:25

Anybody that tells you it never happens is likely lying to you. It absolutely happened. It absolutely happens. Yeah, we've had people kick the younger guys off the job. They're not cutting it. Well, they're cutting it different than your expectations. So some people we have to have conversations with and talk to them about

Steve Doyle (: 21:30

Correct.

Brad Herda (: 21:32

You can be more forceful than that, Joe. It's okay.

Steve Doyle (: 21:35

Yep.

Joe McClaran (: 21:54

approach and communication skills, those soft skills that they don't have. They have all the training in the world to install an HVAC system, but they don't know how to have a conversation. So we have to train those soft skills. We're going to have the folks that just get them off my job, quit putting apprentices with me. I'm tired of it. And that's going to be their stance. And it is what it is. mean, they're great form and they're great leaders.

Steve Doyle (: 22:00

the

Steve Doyle (: 22:16

Yep.

Joe McClaran (: 22:23

as far as the job and the work. So we have to try to train those communication skills. But we also have, we have one foreman in electrical that is 23 years old. He was running work before he graduated apprenticeship in electrical. We have one in plumbing. He started running work right at the end of his apprenticeship. And now he's running solo plumbing full jobs by himself.

Steve Doyle (: 22:25

Right.

Steve Doyle (: 22:36

Wow.

Steve Doyle (: 22:40

Awesome.

Joe McClaran (: 22:52

big scale jobs like schools.

Steve Doyle (: 22:53

That's fantastic.

Joe McClaran (: 22:55

So I think as the older generation retires, we're gonna see a shift in communication and leadership styles as these people and millennials, Gen X, these people, maybe some Gen Z coming up too. I mean, they're right there. Are taking over these leadership positions. Yeah, I mean, they're taking leadership positions and their outlook is going to be a lot different.

Steve Doyle (: 23:05

Mm-hmm.

Brad Herda (: 23:15

They're 28 years old.

Joe McClaran (: 23:24

than the 65 year old foreman. It's just, it is what it is. That's how it's gonna work. And I think the industry is going to see a big shift in the next 10, 15 years when these folks take leadership positions.

Steve Doyle (: 23:26

yeah.

Steve Doyle (: 23:30

Mm-hmm.

Brad Herda (: 23:41

I think it's gonna be way sooner than that. Wait, it's it's gonna be and I would say in the next three years you will see a massive shift because you will have boomers that will be able that will say hey I'm out Gen X that doesn't want to be there because they're stuck in the middle and it's gonna be heavily millennial Gen Z driven and it will be interesting to see how when those older Gen Z's may have taken a different approach than maybe some of the millennial crowd.

Joe McClaran (: 23:43

I hope you're right.

Steve Doyle (: 24:10

Mm-hmm.

Brad Herda (: 24:10

and they jump over to those leadership folks and they they pass them up similar to how you know, millennials past X and X past boomers and all those other things in front of them. It'll be interesting how that dynamic plays out. That will be a very challenging situation I think for many trade organizations.

Steve Doyle (: 24:32

you

Joe McClaran (: 24:32

Yeah, I think you're right. And it's getting that training now in the next couple of years and make sure you're getting in front of your more experienced people that are looking forward to that next leadership position. It's how are we going to develop those skills now so that when you're ready to take over as a foreman, you can have those conversations in a positive and meaningful way.

Steve Doyle (: 24:57

Right. Yep.

Brad Herda (: 25:01

All right,

Steve Doyle (: 25:03

All right. I was gonna say, yeah, we're at that point. So Joe, we're at that point, we are right before we kind of cut out, we kind of added in this segment called Bite Your Tongue. So you haven't heard it before on the, maybe you've heard it a little bit on some of the newer ones. But it's, have you ever had an instance where you have said something to someone and you would have been like, you know, I really should have bit my tongue. I shouldn't have said that.

Have you ever come across a scenario like that, especially on a job site or things?

Brad Herda (: 25:40

or a customer you may have been serving food and beverage to.

Steve Doyle (: 25:42

I'm sorry.

Joe McClaran (: 25:46

Yeah, some friends actually didn't have anything on an actual job site. We were having conversation out by the pool last year and they were on that boat of the trades as a bunch of idiots. And I immediately felt my blood pressure go through the roof. I felt my face getting super red.

I was angry, got a white knuckle in it from clenching my fist. And I was able to bite my tongue after I said, what the hell is wrong with you?

Steve Doyle (: 26:17

Yeah.

Steve Doyle (: 26:28

I

Joe McClaran (: 26:29

And right after that came out of my mouth, was like, that's a terrible approach to convince them of anything. Let me stop and change this. I was like, yeah. Yeah, so here's all this credibility I wanna have. And then here's me blowing it out of the sky by saying that line. I wish I had a bit my tongue there. I don't think I convinced them of anything that day.

Steve Doyle (: 26:34

laughter

Brad Herda (: 26:38

We're gonna go with the conflict approach versus the understanding approach.

Steve Doyle (: 26:41

Yeah.

Steve Doyle (: 26:48

Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Doyle (: 26:55

It's all right. No, we can't win a ball. We always have those those moments where we're like, you know, on the reflection side, it's like, yeah, could have could have should have would have. But you know what? Kind of had fun doing it.

Brad Herda (: 26:55

you

Joe McClaran (: 26:57

I can't win them all.

Joe McClaran (: 27:10

Yeah, yeah, I can always second guess what happened in the past and nothing I can do about it.

Steve Doyle (: 27:16

Right.

Brad Herda (: 27:16

Right. So Joe, for any younger folks that are in the Knoxville area or even down in that region of the US or other talent acquisition folks that are in the industry, they want to get a hold of you, talk to you, find out what's working, not working. How do they find you? Where do they get a hold of you? How do they reach out, etc.

Joe McClaran (: 27:38

LinkedIn as a recruiter I live on there, send me a DM. I'm happy to answer any questions. I'm happy to try to make industry contacts. I mean, we're a part of Comfort Systems USA, which is national. I can find the recruiter or hiring manager of any of our operating companies within the United States. So even if you're not in my direct area, I can connect you with somebody that could provide an opportunity. Because we need you.

We're going to keep needing you. We're looking at a labor shortage or a skills gap. And I don't think it's a skills gap. I think it's a lack of accessibility for opportunity for those people that don't have the skills. So, yeah.

Steve Doyle (: 28:23

Yes. Yes.

Brad Herda (: 28:24

It's poor communication, poor understanding. You've told people you're not worthy for two decades and now, oh shit, now you're important. Now it's like, prove it. It's like all the BS meters are up and it's like, okay, great. So it's an uphill battle. So Joe, thank you so much for sharing your stories and your opportunity. I'm so glad you said yes to the prom date to get you in this spot. Otherwise we wouldn't be here today.

Steve Doyle (: 28:32

Mm-hmm.

Steve Doyle (: 28:50

Yeah.

Yeah.

Brad Herda (: 28:54

You know, you're on your second date, so congratulations.

Joe McClaran (: 28:57

Appreciate it. Thank you all for having me.

Steve Doyle (: 28:57

Thanks.

Brad Herda (: 28:59

All right, thanks a lot.